Has Shriver published results for whites from other than the State College, PA area? I asked him that and he said he was working on a broader sample. If his data is from Central Pennsylvania, I believe that area has some Russians and other Slavs (e.g., the Russian Orthodox wedding scene in "The Deer Hunter"). It wouldn't be surprising to find Mongol genes in Eastern Europeans.

With Huns, Avars and other various Asiatic nomads invading and settling Germany, Italy and even France small wonder Mongoloid DNA is detected more frequently in Western and Southern Europe, not in North-Eastern.

>> With Huns, Avars and other various Asiatic nomads invading and settling Germany, Italy and even France small wonder Mongoloid DNA is detected more frequently in Western and Southern Europe, not in North-Eastern.

In general, Mongoloid mtDNA is not frequent in Europe. It would indeed be peculiar and counter-intuitive if the areas most affected genetically would be the ones you mention.

>> Has Shriver published results for whites from other than the State College, PA area?

The data from the State College, PA area were tested on 33 (?) Ancestry Informative Markers for percentages of European/West African/Native American ancestry. "East Asian" was not included as a category in the analyses.

ALso, the only other study that mentions explicitly admixture in European-Americans is [1] where the African admixture is estimated at 0.5%-1.2% in three separate samples. East Asian admixture again was not tested.

The results I was referring to come from DNAPrint Genomics and have only been announced informally in the GENEALOGY-DNA mailing list. According to Tony Frudakis of DNAPrint (private communication), one third of the Caucasian individuals tested (on 70 AIMs) register with significant non-"Indo-European" (i.e., non-Caucasian) ancestry, most of which is Native American or East Asian, and very rarely Sub-Saharan African. This would agree with the PA results, broadly speaking.

[4] Esteban J. Parra et al., Estimating African American Admixture Proportions by Use of Population-Specific Alleles, Am. J. Hum. Genet., 63:1839-1851, 1998

Lame, very lame.

A surprising outcome of their testing so far is that about one out of three Caucasians have significant Native American and East Asian ancestry.

Sure, if you call tat-C Mongoloid (which it is not) and set a completely arbitrary on limit on what may be considered "significant."

However, there is a very good explanation for the mechanism by which East Asian genes may have come into the population of Eastern and Northern Europe. As far as I know, no one has proposed it before.

Correction, this is not an "explanation"-but pure farfethched speculation.

During prehistoric times, Caucasoid people (mainly Iranics, but also Tocharians) were widely distributed in the Eurasian steppes. The practice of patrilocality and their proximity to regions inhabited by Mongoloids would ensure that (a) their Y chromosomes would remain Western Eurasian, (b) that they would acquire a certain level of Mongoloid admixture by taking (voluntarily, or not) Mongoloid women.

How would it ensure that they would interbreed with Mongoloids? How much Mongoloid admixture do you think was acquired this way? What proof do you have that the hordes that invaded Europe were of this Caucasoid-Y, Mongoloid-X type?

Later, in the 1st and 2nd millennia AD, the tide reversed and movements of peoples from the Eurasian steppes invaded Europe. Some of these were initiated from as far east as Mongolia, but the vast majority of men would be drawn from the Caucasoid and Caucasoid-Mongoloid people of Asia. These invasions involved males, who do not pass on their (potentially Mongoloid) mtDNA to their children. Hence, partially Mongoloid males could have been absorbed without much evidence in terms of Y chromosome or mtDNA markers of East Asian origin.

Yaddah, yaddah, yaddah... Of course one must assume that these men were enitrely Caucasoid on the Y-chromosome-a very big if, to say the least. In any case, the vast majority of Mongoloid admixture in Eastern Europe is of Finno-Ugric, not Mongol or Tatar origin. Unlike Central Europe and Italy, the invading Asiatic hordes were not absorbed into Slavic genepools (with the notable distinction of a very small enclave of ethnic Ukrainians of Turanid type in Depropetrovsk) but rather remained genetic and cultural isolates.

Has Shriver published results for whites from other than the State College, PA area? I asked him that and he said he was working on a broader sample. If his data is from Central Pennsylvania, I believe that area has some Russians and other Slavs (e.g., the Russian Orthodox wedding scene in "The Deer Hunter"). It wouldn't be surprising to find Mongol genes in Eastern Europeans.

Attributing the large amount of Native American ancestry found in European Americans on numerically insignificant Eastern Europeans is quite irrational, IMHO.

>> Sure, if you call tat-C Mongoloid (which it is not) and set a completely arbitrary on limit on what may be considered "significant."

AncestryByDNA does not test Y chromosomes but ancestry informative markers on autosomes. More than 5% is labeled significant, because anything less than that may be due to chance.

>> How would it ensure that they would interbreed with Mongoloids? How much Mongoloid admixture do you think was acquired this way? What proof do you have that the hordes that invaded Europe were of this Caucasoid-Y, Mongoloid-X type?

In Central Asia, Caucasoid Y-DNA runs between 20% in pure Mongols to 86% in Turkmen. Obviously part Mongoloid groups such as the Kyrgyz have 76% Caucasoid Y-chromosomes. Also, note that the Western groups were probably even higher in Caucasoid Y chromosomes because historical migrations have introduced more Mongoloid Y chromosomes to the population.

>> In any case, the vast majority of Mongoloid admixture in Eastern Europe is of Finno-Ugric, not Mongol or Tatar origin. Unlike Central Europe and Italy, the invading Asiatic hordes were not absorbed into Slavic genepools (with the notable distinction of a very small enclave of ethnic Ukrainians of Turanid type in Depropetrovsk) but rather remained genetic and cultural isolates.

Italy does not have any Mongoloid element present. Neither does Central Europe. Types like Yeltsin, Brezhnev, etc. with obvious Mongoloid influence are more frequent among the Eastern Slavs.

In Central Asia, Caucasoid Y-DNA runs between 20% in pure Mongols to 86% in Turkmen. Obviously part Mongoloid groups such as the Kyrgyz have 76% Caucasoid Y-chromosomes. Also, note that the Western groups were probably even higher in Caucasoid Y chromosomes because historical migrations have introduced more Mongoloid Y chromosomes to the population.

How much of this admixture do you think is of prehistoric origin?

Italy does not have any Mongoloid element present.

That is a lie. Italy has quite a bit of Mongoloid admxiture, from the Huns:

"26 Lombard crania from two sites: from Nikitsch in the Oberpullendoff district of Burgenland, and Vinzen, near Regensburg, in Lower Austria; both dating from the fifty year interval which the Lombards spent north of the mountains before their final burst into Italy in 568 A.D.95 Eight skulls are those of the usual Germanic variety of Nordics, with some exceptionally tall- and large-skulled individuals, while five others ranging in cranial index from 77 to 93, show in their flat faces and broad nasal bones clear traces of mongoloid mixture. "

Coon, Carleton Stevens, The Races of Europe Chapter VI-The Germanic Peoples.

Neither does Central Europe.

Are you telling me that there is no Mongoloid admixture in Hungary and Eastern Germany??

Types like Yeltsin,

Yeltsin is a drunk and it shows on his physiognomy.

Brezhnev,

Brezhnev is from Dnepropetrovsk, and belongs to the Turanid type I mentioned earlier.
etc. with obvious Mongoloid influence are more frequent among the Eastern Slavs.

Of course they are *comparatively more* common-but as a percentage of the population, they are insignificant.

I also forgot to mention that Italians have HG26, a Mongoloid genetic marker.

you know you undermine yourself bringing up tat-C when dienekes specifically is attempting to explain the lack of y chromosomal markers-read and comprehend before your open your mouth.

>> That is a lie. Italy has quite a bit of Mongoloid admxiture, from the Huns:

Please refrain from insults. Modern Italians of course are renowned for their sharp features that are the exact opposite of the Mongoloid race. In any case, I have never seen any mention of Mongoloid admixture in any Italians.

>> Are you telling me that there is no Mongoloid admixture in Hungary and Eastern Germany??

The microgeographical distribution of these elements is still to be determined. What seems to be likely is that there is a source for it in the northeast, associated with Finno-Ugrians and another East->West cline associated perhaps with the historical invasions.

>> Of course they are *comparatively more* common-but as a percentage of the population, they are insignificant.

It's too soon to put a number on it, because there are no numbers as of yet.

i'm still a little skeptical about this idea though. would be nice to look @ irish people-they weren't impacted by the sarmatians, huns, avars, etc. and certain areas like the western part of the island probably doesn't have much germanic influence via the anglo-irish & norse.

HG26 is not a Mongoloid marker. It is ancestral to haplogroups found either in Mongoloids or Caucasoids. It is found as far west as Portugal, indicating that it is indeed not of Mongoloid origin in Europeans.

Please refrain from insults.
So saying that a European ethnic group has Mongoloid admixture is an insult?

>> So saying that a European ethnic group has Mongoloid admixture is an insult?

Accusing me of lying is an insult. Please refrain from insults.

No, but calling him a liar was a bit hostile.

oh..maybe I should refresh before commenting next time.

Dienekes, you do realized that this theory applies just as well to the Greeks who were invaded by Turanid Turks?

If I didn't know any better, I'd think that these Greeks are Chinese:

http://www.geocities.com/refuting_rm/gr/mongol_ioannasoulioti.jpg

http://www.geocities.com/refuting_rm/gr/mongol_marios_fragkoulis.jpg

>> Dienekes, you do realized that this theory applies just as well to the Greeks who were invaded by Turanid Turks?

No, this theory does not apply to Greeks, since Greeks do not have any morphological sign of Mongoloid ancestry. G.F. Debets who noted the absorption of Mongoloid elements in Russians also supervised the thesis of Greek anthropologist Aris Poulianos who rightly observed the absence of extra-Caucasoid elements in the Greek population. Greeks have sharp facial relief, wavy hair, developed secondary and tertiary hair cover, non-planar nasal root and all the other usual diagnostic traits that distinguish the Mongoloid from the Europeoid type.

Incidentally, Turks themselves don't usually show signs of Mongoloid ancestry. And, for well-known (religious and economical) reasons there has been no genetic influence of Turks on their Christian subjects, while the opposite form of influence is probably significant. Type of Turkish invaders, after Coon:

http://www.legioneuropa.org/Racediv/CSCoon/Images/p17f1.gif

There is also no genetic evidence of steppe elements in the Greek population. The main haplogroup associate with steppe elements (R1a) is found only in 10% of Greece, noticeably lower than elsewhere in Europe. In all likelihood it reflects partly prehistoric elements, and the small absorption of Scythian slaves, Varangians, and Slavs during the historical period. Turks only have 5%, indicating that they are not descended from steppe people either.

The individuals you posted are not of course in the least Mongoloid.

I just re-read the e-mail I got from Dr. Tony Frudakis, and actually 2/3 of Europeans have significant non-Caucasian ancestry. If that turns out to be the case, then this will be very interesting indeed.

Asia was originally peopled by Caucasian peoples. You can find European types from Northern China to Western Russia. These people has been victims periodic genocydes by Mongol nomads, whom have diffused their genes in a decreasing cline from the center of irradiation of Mongol genes near the Altai range to Italia (invaded successively by Huns, Mongols, etc.)and to Poland. Mongol people also harassed Swedes and Finns, and destroyed the Greenland Danish settlement. By the way, settled Chinese populations did fare similarly, and were decimated and mongolized by repeated invasions, genocydes and massive rapes.Inb a few thousand years, we shall all be half mongols.

So can someone actually show me some evidence that Eastern and Central Europeans have Mongol blood in them?

So far, I've only seen that Tat-C (HG16) is common in Baltic and Finnic populations. This may, or may not be a Mongol markers.

In terms of mtDNA, Mongol markers don't even reach 2% in Eastern Europe.

I have also seen some Autosomal DNA tests from Poland, and there was no mention of any Mongol influence.

So what's going on here?

in response to - "Please refrain from insults. Modern Italians of course are renowned for their sharp features that are the exact opposite of the Mongoloid race. In any case, I have never seen any mention of Mongoloid admixture in any Italians."

my take- Actually, many East Asians have sharp features, esp. high cheekbones that you purport to be the exact opposite of the Mongoloid race. Many EurAsians (i.e. michelle branch) look Italian with dark hair and light skin. Isn't the entire human race an almagam of peoples resulting from historical population shifts and migrations? Europe seems to be but a Western extension of the supercontinent of Asia so is it surprising that some mixes have occurred? Who cares...

Northeastern Mongoloids are flat-faced, that is what I was referrringto when saying that they are not sharp-featured. Their facial skeleton does not project forward like in Caucasoids.

Prodigal Son claims, "Yeltsin is a drunk and it shows on his physiognomy."

Oh, sure, being a drunkard makes you into a Mongoloid. Right. The fact of the matter is that Russians like you are not as White as the Swedes and other Scandinavians, and certainly not as White as Belgians and Germans. Even the Greeks are Whiter than you, given your Mongoloid background.

It's funny to see a Mongoloid Russian saying the Greeks are Mongoloid.

-Tronder Nationalist

THE MISUSE OF RACE IN MEDICAL DIAGNOSIS by Richard Garcia, The Chronicle of Higher Education, May 9, 2003. Volume 49, Issue 35, Page B15.

http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-background-01-y.htm

My father was born in Northern Greece and he would be insulted if told being anything else.

My mtDNA is U5b1 and my mother was born in Eastern Finland.

On the DNA Print test (mentioned at http://www.gnxp.com) I was said to be 23% East Asian and 77% Indo-European.

Is this important?

Atleast not being ignored by Doctors; who told me that people from Greece and Finland are tuff - and that they can be rather Bohemian (when I am an extremely sensitive and tidy person) instead of respectfully looking at me as an individual with symptoms of a serious illness.

http://www.asiaweek.com/asiaweek/magazine/2000/0602/as.health.html

Has anyone seen the handsome Mr. Koukoudis´ eyes?

http://web.otenet.gr/vlachs

Hasn't the Italians and Spanish
mixed with the Middle Easterners and closer
to them in genes?
I always considered Italians closer to the
dark skinned, large nosed,short and curly haired
middle easterners than the northern Europeans.
Personally, it would be an insult to the people
of Mongoloid ancestoral background to have been
mixed with people of this region

>> Personally, it would be an insult to the people
of Mongoloid ancestoral background to have been
mixed with people of this region

Why do you think that it would be an "insult" for Mongoloids to mix with Northern Europeans? Do you dislike Northern Europeans?

The appearance of many Northern Europeans, Western and Eastern, despite their pigmentation have facial features indicating large amounts of Mongoloid genetic inheritance. Many exterminated Jews were blond and blue-eyed. Their pigmentation did not help them. Those features labled paedomorphic in North-West European women are actually Mongoloid. The flaring cheek bones, broadish nose, almond shaped eyes, everted lips and straight hair. Under the pink tinge is a light yellow skin.
As for Emma trying to slag off Italians or Spanish Europeans with the hidden slur of Middle Eastern admixture, and it is a slur as ME people are not Europeans, I have this to say: dark skin, hair and eyes in ME people contains much more eumelanin than Mediterranean skin, hair and eyes and on mixing with any European group will mostly be dominant in their offspring ie the offspring will look ME not European. With Italians or Spanish people mixing with other Europeans especially the ones from the NW Europe their offspring will mostly be light eyed, lighter skinned and lighter haired than their "darker" parent. A totally different outcome to that with ME admixture. Most Northern Mongolians are lighter in skin colour than ME people and when mixed with Europeans tend to have skin colours in the European range but with mongolian features which persist over many generations as seen in Scandinavia, Slavic lands and other Northern European countries. Central Europeans eg Czechs, Austrians, Hungarians,Germans etc have lots of Slavic ancestry and through them not the numerically small effect of Huns and Avars that they have high Mongoloid inheritance also.

I think the discussions here are interesting but get a bit carried away at times. We should appreciate our human diversity! Yes different groups do exist and that's a cool thing, it'd be pretty boring if we were all the same right? Well anyway, on the subject of Mediterraneans and ME, I have to agree that people who are half Mediterranean/half Northern European look totally European as they are entirely European in ancestry. I'm the son of a Sicilian (S. Italian) father and a "European mutt" (Italian, Irish, German, English) mother and although I look alot more Mediterranean like my father, nobody really thinks I look ME. I simply get Greek or Italian most of the time. Most other half-Italian/N. Europeans I know are actually physically indistinguishable from most Northern Europeans. I seem to be one of the few more Mediterranean-looking ones out there if that makes any sense, lol. I must say that Mediterraneans do look quite distinct from ME the great majority of the time, in fact dark hair and light eyes are a frequent combination in the Mediterranean. As a matter of fact, a few of my dad's Sicilian relatives were blond. If Italians, Greeks, and Spaniards had higher incidences of blondness in their populations, they'd look by and large indistinguishable from all other Europeans in every way. In any case, I'm proud of my heritage and always laugh when people say Sicilians are totally "Arab" in ancestry, how ignorant some people are, not saying that Arab ancestry connotates negativity, it certainly does not, but I'd just like to set the facts straight. Thanks for your time and peace to all!