"Greeks Created Western Civilization"

Uh, yeah, sure they did.

"Thus the mathematical sciences originated in the neighborhood of Egypt, because there the priestly class was allowed leisure." (Aristotle, _Metaphysics_ I. I. 15, 1, trans. by H. Tredennick)

"On a visit to Egypt [Pythagoras] became a student of the religion of the people, and was first to bring to the Greeks all philosophy." (Isocrates, _Busiris_ 27-30)

"...geometry was invented, it is said, from the measurement of lands which is made necessary by the Nile when it confounds the bondaries at the time of its overflows. This science, then, is believed to have come to the Greeks from the Aegyptians; astronomy and arithemtic from the Phoenicians; and at present the far the greatest store of knowledge in every other branch of philosophy is had from these cities. And if one must believe Poseidonius, the ancient dogma about atoms originated with Mochus, a Sidonian [Phoenician], born before the Trojan times." (Strabo, _Geography_, 16, 2, trans. by H. L. Jones)

"...to inspire those kings whose minds reached out to heights bordering on heavens, kings who civilized savage peoples beneath the eastern sky, whose lnads are severed by the Euphrates or flooded by the Nile, where the stars return to view and soar above the cities of dusky nations. ...These were the men who founded our noble science and were the first by their art to discern the destinies dependend on the wandering stars." (Manilius, _Astronomica_, 1, 40-67, trans. by G.P. Goold)

"...Egyptians have not only been accepted by the present inhabitants but have aroused no little admiration among the Greeks; and for that reason those men who have won the greatest repute in intellectual things have been eager to visit Egypt in order to acquaint themselves with its laws and institutions.... [Egypt] was nevertheless eagerly visited by Orpheus and the poet Homer in the earliest times and in later times by many others, such as Pythagoras of Samos and Solon the lawgiver." (Diodorus Siculus, Book I. 68)

"[Pythagoras] left the city and went off to Egypt and Babylon, to satisfy his fondness for learning..." (Strabo, _Geography_ 14. I. 16, trans. by H.L. Jones)

"[Thales] exhorted [Pythagoras] to sail into Egypt, and associate with the Memphian and Diosolitan priests. For he confessed that his own reputation for wisdom, was derived from the instructions of these priests; but that he was neither naturally, nor by exercise, endued with those excellent prerogatives, which were so visibly displayed in the person of Pythagoras. Thales, therefore, gladly announced to him, from all these circumstances, that he would become the wisest and most divine of all men, if he associated with these Egyptian priests." (Iamblichus, _Life of Pythagoras_, Chapter II)

"He (Thales) had no instructor, except he when to Egypt and spent time with the priests there...." (Diogenes Laertius, I. 2-29)

"This is also confirmed by the most learned of Greeks such as Solon, Thales, Plato, Eudoxus, Pythagoras, and as some say, even Lycurgus going to Egypt and conversing with the priests; of whom they say Euxodus was a hearer of Chonuphis of Memphis, Solon of Sonchis of Sais, and Pythagoras of Oenuphis of Heliopolis. Wherefore the last named, being, as is probable, more than ordinarily admired by the men, and they also be him imitated their symbolic and mysterious way of talking; obscuring his sentiments with dark riddles. For the greatest part of Pythagoric precepts fall nothing short of those sacred writings they call hieroglyphical..." (Plutarch, _Morals_, 10)

"He [Pythagoras] had three silver flagons made and took them as presents to each of the priests of Egypt ... While still young, so eager was he for knowledge, he left his own country ... he learnt the Egyptian language, so we learn from Antiphon in his book _On Men of Oustanding Merit_, and he also journeyed among the Chaldaens and Magi." (Diogenes Laertius, VIII. 2-4)

"the Greeks learnt from him [Melampus] the ceremonies which they now practise. I therefore maintain that Melampus, who was a wise man, and had acquired the art of divination, having become acquainted with the worship of Bacchus through knowledge derived from Egypt, introduced it into Greece, with a few slight changes, at the same time that he brought in various other practices."
- Herodotus, bk. II

" For I can by no means allow that it is by mere coincidence that the Bacchic ceremonies in Greece are so nearly the same as the Egyptian- they would then have been more Greek in their character, and less recent in their origin. Much less can I admit that the Egyptians borrowed these customs, or any other, from the Greeks. My belief is that Melampus got his knowledge of them from Cadmus the Tyrian, and the followers whom he brought from Phoenicia into the country which is now called Boeotia. "
- herodotus, bk. II

"Almost all the names of the gods came into Greece from Egypt. My inquiries prove that they were all derived from a foreign source, and my opinion is that Egypt furnished the greater number."
- Herodotus, bk. II

"Besides these which have been here mentioned, there are many other practices..., which the Greeks have borrowed from Egypt."
- Herodotus, bk. II

"the Greeks learnt also divination ... from the Egyptians."
- Herodotus, bk. II

"The Egyptians were also the first to introduce solemn assemblies, processions, and litanies to the gods; of all which the Greeks were taught the use by them."
-Herodotus, bk. II

"In general, the Greeks appropriate to themselves the most renowned of both Egyptian heroes and gods, and also the colonies sent out by them." (Diodorus, Book I. 23)

"They wear linen tunics with fringes hanging about the legs, called "calasiris" and loose white woollen mantles over these. But nothing of wool is brought into temples, or buried with them; that is forbidden. In this they follow the same rule as the ritual in Orphic and Bacchic; but which is in truth Egyptian.... (Herodotus, Book II, 81)

"The daughters of Danaus brought [the Thesmophoria] from Egypt, and taught them to the Pelasgic women of the Peloponnese." (Herodotus, Book II, 171)

Posted by: Osiris at June 7, 2003 10:53 AM

I don't want to attack Greek culture because the west needs to collectivise to sort out its problems. Im not saying our culture is better than Greek culture, it is worse. But northern Europe is not a reflection of Greece.

The book says "In the classics departments of today’s universities, Bruce Thornton says, the Greeks are accused of stealing their achievements from black Egyptians, of oppressing their wives and daughters, and of hypocritically speculating about freedom while holding slaves. Most of all, classic Greek culture has come under attack precisely because its glorious achievement, extended into history, is what defines the West and makes it distinct."

The fact is, Greece - a Middle Old World culture - is not what makes the (northern European) west distinct. Greece and Rome (although MacDonald tries to make Rome nore western) were from a different culture area.

"Thus, while it's important to trace the pedigree of Western civilization to its Greek source, going backwards in time, it is also important to look at modernity (and now, post-modernity) through a Greek lens and consider "what they would think" about us today."

I know what they would think about you and me. You are one of them, of their blood. I would be a "barbarian" just as I am "goyim" to a Jew. And this sensible ethnocentrism suited the diaspora Greeks who kept their identity under Parthian and Persian rule, just as the collectivist and egalitarian Jews kept a seperate identity as a segmentary society.

Also, the unassimilated Greeks today of course. Greek has the longest tradition as a constantly spoken language. Compare this to how the Irish adopted english or how the Franks adopted a Romance language. If Greeks had a common set of cultural values with northern Europeans then Greece wouldn't be so clearly Greek.

You will remember how Aristotle saw foreigners to be treated as plants and animals, but Alexander, from Macedonia (of unknown ethnic group but certainly Macedonians were more like the Thracians than Greeks in attitude), practiced "cosmopolitanism". Like the Jews, the ethnocentric southern Greeks used the tolerance of less-ethnocentric foreigners (Macedonians) to succeed as a diaspora culture.

Posted by: caitlin at June 7, 2003 12:01 PM

Osiris, repeating the few quotes that you learned in Afrocentrism 101 is no way to have a discussion.

Posted by: Dienekes at June 7, 2003 01:46 PM

>> The fact is, Greece - a Middle Old World culture - is not what makes the (northern European) west distinct. Greece and Rome (although MacDonald tries to make Rome nore western) were from a different culture area.

Well, the (northern European) West is culturally more like Greece and Rome than it is like the cultures of its prehistoric inhabitants. It is just an offshoot though, one of many - it is not an exclusive heir to the classical legacy.

>> I know what they would think about you and me. You are one of them, of their blood. I would be a "barbarian" just as I am "goyim" to a Jew.

The Greek concept of a "barbarian" is not equivalent to the Jewish concept of "goyim". Also, the Greeks did not have the modern cultural obsession with blood and purity and tried to judge institutions (both their own, and those of others) objectively.

>> If Greeks had a common set of cultural values with northern Europeans then Greece wouldn't be so clearly Greek.

Clearly there are important differences. But all of the defining values of European civilization are Greek. Name one 'cultural value' of northern Europe that was not acquired from the Greeks and Romans.

>> You will remember how Aristotle saw foreigners to be treated as plants and animals

No, I don't remember that. Aristotle had some harsh things to say about barbarians, but Aristotle does not define Greek attitudes in general. The best example of Greek tolerance is Anacharsis, the Scythian, who came to live among the Greeks, studied, philosophized, acquired great fame but was killed on his return to Scythia because he had adopted Greek ways. This liberality of Greek culture is sharply contrasted with the attitudes of other cultures/civilizations of that time.

>> but certainly Macedonians were more like the Thracians than Greeks in attitude

The Macedonians were Greek speakers whose society had not evolved into the polis form of government.

>> Like the Jews, the ethnocentric southern Greeks used the tolerance of less-ethnocentric foreigners (Macedonians) to succeed as a diaspora culture.

First of all, unlike the Jews, the Greeks were absorbed in all the lands that were once part of their diaspora, with the exception of the "core" Greeks of the Balkans, Southern Italy and Anatolia that persisted until modern times. Fanatical exclusive ethnocentrism is not part of the Greek heritage.

The Greeks were/are aware of the cultural differences between themselves and other people. Theye were proud of their culture and form of government and saw the striking differences between themselves and other people. But, that did not develop into racism or ethnocentrism.

Posted by: Dienekes at June 7, 2003 02:16 PM

"No way to have a discussion"? Typical runaround. Of course there can be no discussion when the ancient written testimonies are entirely incompatible with your position. Fortunately for the sake of Truth, your ancestors had no trouble acknowledging the true origins of their civilization, and unlike the Europeans that followed, they saw no reason to rewrite or ignore their history.

Posted by: Osiris at June 7, 2003 03:34 PM

Osiris, you are in no position to determine what the ancient testimonials say about anything, or to interpret these properly, because you don't speak the ancient languages and you are simply blindly repeating what you were taught in Afrocentrism 101.

Posted by: Dienekes at June 7, 2003 06:25 PM

I would disagree that today's northern Europeans are more like Greeks than, say, Gauls.

Romans did have a big influence in the west, I don't deny that. But it is limited. Traditionally France is divided between north and south, with different attitudes to family and so forth.
But the evolutionary strategy is different to southern Europeams. What do you call the defining values?

In the USA in world war 2, the Germans were not interred in camps, but the Italians were. That is, Italians felt a loyalty to the Italian culture more than the Germans did to Germany, German collectivism was very recent and Germans did not have that same loyalty to German culture. Southern Europeans re fundamentally foreign. According to MacDonald, there is a difference between the attitudes of northern and southern babies when passed between adults. That can only mean the differences are partly genetic, that there is a hardwired difference between the northern and southern attitudes to society.

MacDonald actually uses Sparta alongside the Jews to show collectivism. Although Sparta was different, I know, to most of Greece.

Greek society was tolerant of foreigners, but Im not saying Greeks werent. Im sayting they were less exogamous towards foreigners than northern Europeans are. There were outsiders in Babylonia and Egypt too, but these cultures did not have a northern European evolutionary strategy.

I could also give examples of exclusion of outsiders ie the ethnocentrism used against Zeno the Phoenician, just as I could use examples such as the conviction of Socrates to argue that Greeks did not well tolerate dissent within the outgroup. In fact the Greek polis seems closer to the Phoenician polis than to the social organisation of modern Europeans.

The names of Macedonians seem Greek but that is not the point. All Macedonian material culture suggests that it was predominantly northern, not southern Greek. They weren't evolving into the polis, so it is wrong to think of them being primitive versions of the Greeks. They belonged to the same culture area as their Thracian neighbours, while the Greeks had the evolutionary strategy of Wst Asia and North Africa.

Ancient diaspora Greeks were absorbed but so were the Chinese Jews eventually. It took centuries for the Greeks of areas like Mesopotamia to disappear. Do you think Jews are not ethnocentric? You may see ancient Greeks as not ethnocentric by modern Greek standards, after collectivising more than ever against centuries of occupation. But by northern standards Greeks can be seen as collectivist.

Take this quote from http://www.gogreece.com/learn/history/Greek_Diaspora.html - "The diaspora communities played a vital role in the development of Greek culture during the Ottoman occupation. Greek enclaves in foreign cultures reinforced national identity while exposing their inhabitants to new intellectual currents, including the ideology of revolution. Many diaspora Greeks became wealthy then helped to support communities in Greece by founding schools and other public institutions." Does it not remind you of American Jews and Israel? English colonial regions do not fund public works in England in this same way.

Posted by: caitlin at June 8, 2003 04:15 AM

You also said, on the eugenics topic, about western infiltration of the Middle East. That is true. But the collectivist Middle East is culturally better able to withstand foreign infiltration - look as Islamic radicalism. European resistance to Islamic immigration is present but nonexistent in comparison.

When the ADL approached the Greek government about restricting liberties for Greeks that the Jews saw as "antisemitism", the Greek government told them what to do. All it has taken for the Zionists to do is to make a moral argument for Zionism and the northern Europeans surrender because it is seen as the right thing to do.

The Italians did the same to northern Europe to keep political influence. Southern Europeans and their Arab neighbours are immune to this sort to infiltration becaus they are ethnocentric, and thus not inclined to favour foreign outlooks where they are at the exspence of native interests.

Posted by: caitlin at June 8, 2003 04:32 AM

>> I would disagree that today's northern Europeans are more like Greeks than, say, Gauls.

Well, they have forsaken the Druidic ban on writing, they go to school where they learn grammar, syntax, arithmetic, geometry and musical theory, they have politics, including elections, they participate in athletic competititions, they go to the theater, they consult a physician, they go to the art museum or admire great architecture in the cities where they live; they care about ethics and logic and believe that every man should pursue knowledge and that every man is free.

Perhaps they are like Celts in other ways . . .

Posted by: Dienekes at June 8, 2003 04:33 PM

>> But the collectivist Middle East is culturally better able to withstand foreign infiltration - look as Islamic radicalism. European resistance to Islamic immigration is present but nonexistent in comparison.

How are they more able to withstand it? After all, American troops are stationed in various parts of the Middle East, not the other way around. It's European/American companies that are making a profit on the region's wealth, not Arabs making a profit on European wealth. It seems to me that European inflitration of the Middle East is vastly more important than Arab infiltration of Europe.

>> Southern Europeans and their Arab neighbours are immune to this sort to infiltration becaus they are ethnocentric, and thus not inclined to favour foreign outlooks where they are at the exspence of native interests.

That is also true.

Posted by: Dienekes at June 8, 2003 04:38 PM

>> I could also give examples of exclusion of outsiders ie the ethnocentrism used against Zeno the Phoenician, just as I could use examples such as the conviction of Socrates to argue that Greeks did not well tolerate dissent within the outgroup. In fact the Greek polis seems closer to the Phoenician polis than to the social organisation of modern Europeans.

You could give the example of Socrates, but that example is the one which proves the rule. Because quite simply the Greeks were tolerant much more than they were intolerant. The Phoenician "polis" was completely different from that of the Greeks. The polis is a completely different institution. I recommend reading the book on the agrarian roots of Greek civilization that I blogged about.

>> All Macedonian material culture suggests that it was predominantly northern, not southern Greek. They weren't evolving into the polis, so it is wrong to think of them being primitive versions of the Greeks. They belonged to the same culture area as their Thracian neighbours, while the Greeks had the evolutionary strategy of Wst Asia and North Africa.

These statements are plainly wrong. Macedonians were Greeks who knew themselves to be Greek. Please provide some references for these views.

>> English colonial regions do not fund public works in England in this same way.

English colonials lived in parts of the Empire, not in foreign lands. Moreover, England was free and prosperous, while Greece was unfree and suffering.

Posted by: Dienekes at June 8, 2003 04:46 PM

The Macedonians were not Thracians. They were Northern Greeks and there were indeed some differences to their society from the Southern Greek societies.

The Macedonian state, when it was formed, was a Monarchy, not a democracy.

Macedonia refers to a geographical region. The Macedonians spoke the Greek language, believed in the same Gods as the Southern and other Greeks, went to the theatre, studied Philosophy, etc...

Aristotle, was a Macedonian, born in the Halkidiki region of Macedonia.

Posted by: Aigokeros at June 9, 2003 03:35 AM

I agree with what Aigokeros is saying, except that Aristotle was not a Macedonian, but a citizen of Stageira which was a colony of Andros.

Posted by: Dienekes at June 9, 2003 03:43 AM

I mignt continue the "western identity" thing up on the critique of Kevin MacDonald. But on Greeks and Macedonians.

It is unknown what Macedonians spoke. They wrote in Greek but so did Thracians. Nobody says Thracians were Greek. But the Macedonian names seem Greek. Perhaps Macedonian language mignt be considered a second language in the Greek language family if it was understood. I think everyone thinks Macedonian was the most distinct dialect of Greek.

The burial customs of the Macedonians are more northern than Greek according to Borza 1990. The making of a tumulus over a burial was a mark of honour. According to Sekunda and Mcbride 1984 the serissa is a Balkan spear. According to Just 1999, women had more influence in Macedonia than in Greece. According to Hammond 1994 the Greeks were more ethnocentric. Also Hammond likens the burial customs of the Macedonians to various Balkan tribes. Macedonian citizenship was granted by both father and mother rather than partilineal. This is from http://books.iuniverse.com/viewbooks.asp?isbn=0595233066&page=169 .

The point about the English settlers abroad still stands. Northern diasporas are not as bound to the homeland as southern diasporas. Italians were imprisoned in the USA during world war 2 - the Americans did not see German minorities as a threat in this way - for the same reason they assimilated more readily!

I don't deny that the climate affects the culture (what do you think of the neighbouring cultures of Asia Minor with a similar climate?). What precisely does Hanson say about Greek agriculture?

Posted by: caitlin at June 9, 2003 09:16 AM

Ethnocentric Arabs and Greeks are are able to resist American infiltration, unlike more individualistic cultures. I meant cultural infiltration. Ethnocentrism is resistance to foreign culture.

Posted by: caitlin at June 9, 2003 09:29 AM

>> The burial customs of the Macedonians are more northern than Greek according to Borza 1990. The making of a tumulus over a burial was a mark of honour.

That is just an archaic feature, like the circle grave of Mycenae. It does not mark Macedonians as different from Greeks.

>> According to Sekunda and Mcbride 1984 the serissa is a Balkan spear.

What does "Balkan spear" mean? And, what does it have to do with anything? By the same token, the first canon-wielding Europeans were ethnically different from those who didn't use cannons.

>> According to Just 1999, women had more influence in Macedonia than in Greece.

Women had more influence in Sparta as well, where they were reputed to rule their men. The social position of women varied across the Greek world.

>> According to Hammond 1994 the Greeks were more ethnocentric. Also Hammond likens the burial customs of the Macedonians to various Balkan tribes. Macedonian citizenship was granted by both father and mother rather than partilineal. This is from http://books.iuniverse.com/viewbooks.asp?isbn=0595233066&page=169 .

Book Description:

"It is an illusion to think that ancient Macedonians were Greeks.

Book Description

Ancient Macedonians should be seen through their own Macedonian prism. It would be an insult to call an ancient Macedonian warrior by any other name. Ancient Macedonians were what they said they were - Macedonians. Any other name would have been "Greek" to them."

It seems to me that this guy has an axe to grind.

Posted by: Dienekes at June 9, 2003 12:39 PM

As to the ethnicity of the Macedonians, there is conflicting evidence: Herodotus said they were really Dorian; while it is reported that king Alexander of Macedonia (not the Great, but an antecessor) was refused participation at The Olympic Games, which were strictly reserved for Greeks. He was thus considered a barbarian. He ultimately alleged being a descendant of the royal family of Argos, but he did not claim the hellenicity of all Macedonians.
Lacking linguistic evidence, we have no way to identify the Macedonians as Greek.

Most classical philogists dare not venture a definite answer, because there are just a few glosses in the way of linguistic evidence (e.g.:

Mac. " ´ade-"; Grk. "´aithér" :"sky")

Whoever the Macedonians were, they were most certainly Indo_European, perhaps akin to the Peonians. And they were thorougly hellenized when they entered History, at least its ruling class.

Of course, Aristotle ´s family was of Ionian origin.

Posted by: eufrenio at June 10, 2003 07:16 AM

>> while it is reported that king Alexander of Macedonia (not the Great, but an antecessor) was refused participation at The Olympic Games, which were strictly reserved for Greeks. He was thus considered a barbarian. He ultimately alleged being a descendant of the royal family of Argos, but he did not claim the hellenicity of all Macedonians.

The Hellanodikai accepted this claim, hence they accepted that Alexander was a Hellene.

>> Lacking linguistic evidence, we have no way to identify the Macedonians as Greek.

The linguistic evidence may be late, but the Macedonians are always known to have spoken Greek, inasmuch as they ever spoke anything. Their religion was also the same as that of other Greeks. There is ample evidence for this, since we don't hear of Macedonians ever sacrificing to any non-Greek deities, presumably of local origin that survived the alleged Hellenization. Indeed, the literature written in Macedonia is also Greek, without any evidence that it contained any significant indigenous elements (lack of glosses). There is never any talk of Macedonians and Greeks needing translators to speak to each other. While the Macedonians sometimes objected to Alexander not addressing them in their own dialect, this was obviously a matter of provincial pride, not a break in communication. Indeed, when Alexander dedicated the spoils of Granicus (?) in the name of the "Macedonians and the other Hellenes" there was no uproar in the Macedonian ranks for being considered Hellenes.

Now, if we go back to the dawn of history, it certainly is the case that not all the various tribes throughout Greece were Hellenic speaking. While I believe that the Macedonians were Greek speaking from prehistory, the main point is that when they appear in history they were considered to be Greek, provincial Greek perhaps, but Greek nonetheless.

Posted by: Dienekes at June 10, 2003 03:07 PM

In regards to the ancient Macedonians I note that many eminent historians such as Hammond, Billows, Fox, and the vast majority who attend the academic International Symposiums on Ancient Macedonia, do hold that the ancient Macedonians were indeed Greek peoples.

They spoke a form of Greek (whether Doric or Aeolic is unknown), worshipped the same God's, and participated in the same Pan-Hellenic institutions, such as the Olympic Games and the Amphictyonic Council.

A modern analogy that somewhat rings true is that the ancient Macedonians, along with the Epirotes and Molossians, were the "hillbillies" of the Greek world.

"In the presence of Zeus, Hera, and Apollo: in the presence of the Genius of Carthage, of Heracles, and Iolaus: in the presence of Ares, Triton, and Poseidon: in the presence of the gods who battle for us and the Sun, Moon, and Earth; in the presence of Rivers, Lakes, and Waters: In the presence of all the Gods who possess Macedonia and the rest of Greece."

Polybius- oath between the Macedonians and Carthaginians vs. the Romans

"and that you may tell your king, who sent you, that a Greek, the lord of Macedonia, entertained you royally both with bed and board."

Herodotus- King Alexander to the Persian envoys.

Posted by: Nika at June 11, 2003 05:21 PM

u suck

Posted by: bob at August 15, 2003 04:28 PM

check this site for the "macedonian question": www.hri.org/docs/macque/text4.html

Posted by: Epikuros at December 25, 2003 07:51 AM

The Molossians were an EPIROTE tribe, not a different ethnic group.

Posted by: Artemisia at January 16, 2004 04:32 PM