August 02, 2003
Masculine somatotypes and hirsuteness as determinants of sexual attractiveness to women
Masculine somatotype and hirsuteness as determinants of sexual attractiveness to women
Dixson, Alan F et al.
Archives of Sexual Behavior. Vol 32(1), Feb 2003, pp. 29-39
Five questionnaire studies asked 685 women to rate the attractiveness of outline drawings of male figures that varied in somatotype, body proportions, symmetry, and in distribution of trunk hair. In Study 1, back-posed figures of mesomorphic (muscular) somatotypes were rated as most attractive, followed by average, ectomorphic (slim), and endomorphic (heavily built) figures. In Study 2, computer morphing of somatotypes to produce an intergraded series resulted in a graded response in terms of perceived attractiveness which mirrored the findings of Study 1. In Study 3, back-posed figures were manipulated in order to change waist-to-hip ratios and waist-to-shoulder ratios. In Study 4, symmetric figures of a mesomorphic somatotype were rated as less attractive than a normal version of the same man. Study 5 showed that presence of trunk hair had a marked, positive effect upon women's ratings of attractiveness for both mesomorphic and endomorphic male figures. Women also judged figures with trunk hair as being older and they consistently rated endomorphic figures as being older than mesomorphs. These results are consistent with effects of sexual selection upon visual signals that advertise health, physical prowess, age, and underlying endocrine condition in the human male.
Posted by Dienekes at August 2, 2003 02:07 AM | PermaLinkWhere does the homosexual preference for shaven male torsos (correct me if I'm wrong) fit into this (if it does in any way)?
Also, a breakdown of women's preferences by race would've been interesting -- do women belonging to the less-hirsute Oriental races (*) show the same preference for trunk hair on their men? It would be surprising if they did.
( * I don't use the unnecessary, inappropriate, wrong, and one-hundred-percent politically inspired Marxist term "Eastern Asians" where Orientals are what is meant in discussions. I'm white but if I were yellow I'd feel not only the same way, but even more strongly -- if I were a self-respecting yellow, that is. Ones who aren't self-respecting ought to like the dishonest, completely phoney, racist term "Eastern Asians" just fine. Me, I like to be called what I am -- no more, and no less. You do that, and you respect me. You beat around the bush, and you have something to hide -- like all Marxists do. Calling a spade a spade has always been STRENG VERBOTEN!!! in Marxism because they'd never get anywhere if they did that, but would be laughed off the stage of history. Everything with them is propaganda -- everything.)
Posted by: Unadorned at August 2, 2003 09:41 AMMarxist term "Eastern Asians" where Orientals are what is meant in discussions
The term 'Oriental' can traditionally refer to Western Asians and South Asians as well, so 'East Asian' provides a bit more clarity. I find it much more useful. Plus it tends to offend Asians, and it helps to be flexible with people's feelings.
Posted by: Jason Malloy at August 2, 2003 10:20 AMUnadorned - I realise account has to be taken of the fact that you're American but you're way wrong in your etymology. Edward Said wrote a famous book called 'Orientalism' - obviously he wasn't talking about Eastern Asians but Middle Easterners. When art theorists and the like talk about representations of Orientalism in, say, the art of the French impressionists, they mean Turkish baths and the like. Oriental is a very imprecise term - the other connotation (in fact the first that pops into my head) is Oriental rugs. Being neither a self-respecting 'Oriental' nor a self respecting East Asian but a self respecting individual, I prefer East Asian because it is more precise. Murray and Hernstein refer to Northeast Asians btw.
Now as for hirstuteness, note that the positive trunk hair preference only arises for mesomorphs and endomorphs. Most East Asians are probably ectomorphs.
Posted by: Jason Soon at August 2, 2003 11:46 AMIf one means Mongoloid, one should just say Mongoloid. "East Asian" is incorrect, since Mongoloids are not limited to East Asia. Oriental is ambiguous.
Posted by: Dienekes at August 2, 2003 04:49 PM>> Now as for hirstuteness, note that the positive trunk hair preference only arises for mesomorphs and endomorphs. Most East Asians are probably ectomorphs.
Slim isn't normally associated with Mongoloids, who tend to have a cold-adapted compact form. According to Renato Biasutti the Mongoloids are predominantly eurysomic (wide-bodied).
Posted by: Dienekes at August 2, 2003 04:55 PMJason wrote,
"Plus, [the word Oriental] tends to offend Asians, and it helps to be flexible with people's feelings."
If someone will please be so kind as to pass me a box of Kleenex (better make that a king-size box, guys), I'll reply to Jason's obviously heartfelt sentiments of extreme solicitation for the tender feelings of Orientals by posting a reference to a reply Richard Poe made (to a post of Thought's entitled, "Unadorned, The Problem Is,") here:
http://www.richardpoe.com/forum.cgi?article=2521&permLink=43328#43328
Mr. Poe wrote, in part,
" ... let me quote from the Chinese-born author Chin-ning Chu, who wrote the following in her book, 'The Asian Mind Game' (Macmillan 1991; pp 8-9):
" 'In Asia the idea that one people is racially superior to another is almost universally acknowledged.
" 'Asians do not have the same sensitivity to racial issues as do Americans. The issue is not as emotionally charged for them. Asians regard it as natural to feel that their race, their nation, their province, their city, and their family are better than yours. [snip]
" ' The preoccupation with race is so acute in America that one cannot make reference to race at all for fear of giving offense. Henrietta Anne Klauser, author of "Writing on Both Sides of the Brain" (Harper & Row, 1987), told me of an excited call she got from her editor prior to the book's publication. The editor insisted on a sentence being rewritten because it contained a racially offensive word. This is the sentence: "I have great respect for paper and I daily bless the Chinaman who invented it." The sentence the editor found acceptable was this: "I have great respect for paper and I daily bless its Chinese inventor." ... It is very hard for an Asian to understand what the problem was with the original. [snip]
" 'Asians do not feel guilty about thinking in racial terms, but they do understand that Westerners, especially Americans do. They will often use accusations of racism to disarm their Western opponents. The same Japanese politician who loudly imputes racist motives to American criticism of Japan himself believes implicitly that the Japanese are racially superior to Caucasians, and also to their Korean and Chinese neighbors. He would never admit these beliefs to a Westerner, but among Asians it is so commonplace to think in racial terms that they do not even bother with denial or guilt.'
"[Excerpted from] Chin-ning Chu, 'The Asian Mind Game,' Macmillan, 1991, pp 8-9."
Miss Chu is what I meant when I spoke about an Oriental who is self-respecting: she's one, in spades; that couldn't be more clear after reading the above excerpt.
About the word "Oriental" hurting the feelings of Orientals, that's pure crap: it no more hurts their feelings than the word white hurts whites' feelings or the word Hebrew hurts Jews' feelings; nor is there any reason on earth why it should. I'm not going to have my chain jerked around by leftists and race-hustlers who think they've gotten hold of control over the language which everyone speaks and can control people that way -- really and truly, I'm not, Jason -- I'm just not into crap of that sort -- but HEY, that's just me -- you'll find plenty of people without principles more than willng to play that game -- far be it from me to rain on anyone's parade, Jason (or, both Jasons, actually -- I'm addressing both gentlemen here).
I'm doubless older than both Jason Malloy and Jason Soon, and I well remember the days before the Marxists dreamt up "Eastern Asians." No Oriental in the known universe was offended by the word "Oriental," which was perfectly polite -- not somewhat polite, not largely polite, not "it'll do but we kinda hoped for better" -- but perfectly polite. Of course, when the Feds gave the signal that Orientals should suddenly start being offended by certain totally polite words, the Orientals having weaker characters -- the easily-manipulable ones -- jumped on the victimology bandwagon, leaving the self-respecting ones standing with mouths agape on the sidelines, watching the degrading spectacle along with incredulous whites like myself.
Put that in your "people's feelings" pipe and smoke it, Jason.
As far as "clarity" goes, that's also crap: there was never any confusion between the meaning of Oriental as in "Department of Oriental Languages and Studies of the University of Chicago," for example, where one went to study Hebrew, Arabic, etc., on the one hand, and use of that word in contexts which clearly meant the Chinese-like races (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, etc.) on the other. That term was far more precise in designating that racial group than the new Marxist term "East Asian" is. Gee, my hormones must be en vadrouille tonight, Jason -- I just can't get into being a Marxist dupe -- I dunno -- maybe it's something I ate?? I'll try to do better tomorrow, I promise ...
>> Put that in your "people's feelings" pipe and smoke it, Jason.
No need for hostility.
Posted by: Dienekes at August 2, 2003 09:03 PMNo hostility, Dienekes -- Jason and I are old friends. The subject got my blood up a little, that's all -- his too, I imagine.
Posted by: Unadorned at August 2, 2003 09:38 PMMore and more males in the United States are shaving their chest hair, especially males that work out with weights. Bodybuilders shave everything of course to show definition and it possible this trend came from bodybuilding. The gay males who control the fashion industry have done work to make shaving chest hair a trend in the United States as they want men to look more like women and women to look more like men. Look at how the homosexuals who control the fashion industry pick for fashion models tall women, with scrawny hips and paltry butts, with small breasts. They are deliberately picking women who while you would not mistake them for men, do not have the curves that heterosexual men lust for.
What country was this study conducted in? I am not saying all women like the shaved chest look, but more women due to the influence of the too powerful fashion industry are starting to prefer this look. I as male, feel that if a man has very little upper chest hair, and all that hair is between his two nipples, between his pecs it does not look right, and he would look better with no hair.
If you look at this photo:
http://friffboy.tripod.com/2f1d02c0.jpg (This guy had breast removal surgery but he was the first example I searched that had in my opinion the horrible kind of chest in the mid-chest between his pecs only)
You can see a good example of chest hair relegated only to the mid chest between the two pecs, which I consider repulsive and better shaved. Does any else find this kind of chest hair disgusting?
If you contrast that guy's chest hair to Razor Ramon's chest hair(I used to watch WWF when I was young: Razor Ramon is obviously mesomorphic) you will notice the difference between more uniform chest hair and chest hair only between the pecs. I would say that this Razor Ramon would have had too much chest hair if he was not so muscular(if he was endomorphic or ectomorphic) so I think more muscular guys can get away with having more chest hair without it looking repulsive.
Posted by: Nikephoros_Phokas at August 3, 2003 11:15 PM
"Slim isn't normally associated with Mongoloids, who tend to have a cold-adapted compact form. According to Renato Biasutti the Mongoloids are predominantly eurysomic (wide-bodied)."
Thats maybe true for some mongoloid types, especially the extreme Tungid ones, but for the greater part of the Sinid ones is to say they are mostly Leptosomic, almost similar in the relations of Ecto- to Endomorphs as Northern-Central Europeans.
They are just shorter and have shorter legs.
Maybe it was some kind of selection too, but almost all Chinese I see in my city are Leptosomic to Mesosomic/Athletic just some are Pyknish.
>> Thats maybe true for some mongoloid types, especially the extreme Tungid ones,
Renato Biasutti attributes eurysomy to the Mongoloid race, not to its subraces.
>> but for the greater part of the Sinid ones is to say they are mostly Leptosomic
That is incorrect. Do you have any citations for this?
Posted by: Dienekes at August 9, 2003 07:57 PMI wrote it in Eickstedts great work "Die Forschung am Menschen".
Again Dienekes, please remember, Leptosom doesnt have to mean a height above 175 cm or long legs.
The Sinid race is really Leptosomic in the majority, and thats what I see when I look at the Chinese in my city, documentations or books.
stocky doesnt mean Pyknish.
They got just more underskin fat than Europeans. Thats true, but in their group you can differ very good between the usual body forms, and there is no significant difference in the relation of the body types to Europeans in the Sinid race.
Typical Leptosomic Sinid:
http://stevegarufi.com/china2.jpg
http://www.jacekphoto.com/china/chinese_people03.jpg
http://people.kde.org/images/shyue.jpg
More Mesosom:
http://www.jacekphoto.com/china/chinese_people11.jpg
http://www.jacekphoto.com/china/chinese_people22.jpg
Eurysom:
http://www1.pref.tokushima.jp/kankyou/seikatsubunka/awalife/april02/lihaibin.jpg
http://www.acad.carleton.edu/curricular/ASLN/faculty/louismeng.gif
Or just look at images from http://www.jacekphoto.com/ there is a nice represantation of northern chinese (nord-sinid) people.
Posted by: Chris at August 9, 2003 09:15 PM"I wrote it in..."
Read :) I was too young to wrote it. ^^