The creator of RRM is a ludicrous mouthpiece for the likes of Kemp and McCulloch. Perhaps your energies would be better spent refuting the fevered fantasies of the latter two gentleman, rather than in examining the ranting of someone who is seemingly under the impression that Quentin Tarintino is a population geneticist.

I m glad to see that you post some very valuable information Dienekes.

Yes it is well known that Demosthenes was half Scythian, but there is another important dimension to this issue that i would like to add.

Demosthene's half-barbarian ancestry, maybe the reason Demosthenes betrayed his fellow Greeks.
This is not for certain, but many have said that Demosthenes was being given money by the Persian King, IN ORDER TO SPEAK NEGATIVELY OF THE MACEDONIA KINGDOM IN NORTH GREECE.

The Macedonian Kingdom was seeking to unite all Greek cities, in order to commence the large Pan-Hellenic march to conquer the Persian Empire and all the then known world!
So, it has been said, that Persians were giving money to Demosthenes one of the most famous and popular orators of Athens at the time, to make every possible effort to stop this unification of Greek cities which in turn would surely mean the end of the Persian Empire...

So, while other Athenian orators, like Isokrates were very pro-Macedonian and urged their fellow Athenians to join the Macedonia crusade, IN ORDER TO BE SAVED FROM THE PERSIANS, Demosthenes only had bad words for the Macedonians, even calling them barbarians at some times.

My point is, that as Demosthenes was not fully Greek, it might have been easier for him to take the Persian side, even though he lived in Athens.
However, there have also been cases of full blooded Greeks that took the Persian side from one time to another..

>> The creator of RRM is a ludicrous mouthpiece for the likes of Kemp and McCulloch.

RRM and Kemp are on a par on the ludicrousness scale as far as I'm concerned. I don't care much about McCulloch since he doesn't write about Greece. Of course his "Nordish race" concept is unscientific, as is the "white race" as a first-order subdivision of the Caucasoid race encompassing all Europeans.

We must be looking at different science, since what I see shows genetic differentiation between European and nonEuropean Caucasians.

As regards "my good friend" McCulloch, while I'm not sure of his writings concerning Greece, I'm am reasonably sure he's not what you'd call a good friend of the Greek people - but then that's my personal opinion.

We must be looking at different science, since what I see shows genetic differentiation between European and nonEuropean Caucasians.

As regards "my good friend" McCulloch, while I'm not sure of his writings concerning Greece, I'm am reasonably sure he's not what you'd call a good friend of the Greek people - but then that's my personal opinion.

>> We must be looking at different science, since what I see shows genetic differentiation between European and nonEuropean Caucasians.

Science tells me that Greeks are closer to their geographical neighbors in both Europe and Asia than they are to most distant peoples in either Europe or Asia. Science tells me that I can sometimes confuse a Greek for an Albanian, an Italian, a Bulgarian, a Serb, a Turk, or a Lebanese and vice versa, but I can rarely confuse a Greek for a Finn, an Englishman, a Saudi Arabian or a Moroccan.

Now, whether Demosthenes was Nordic is open to question, since no information as to his pigmentation has been preserved by tradition.

Demosthenes is quite obviously Nordic. Feel free to continue painting his hair black in photoshop if you think you can convince yourself otherwise.

However, what's more important is that Demosthenes' ancestry was partly barbarian, as his mother was a Scythian.

Uhm, no, you ignorant and dishonest Pontian. One of his political claimed his grandmother was Scythian. This claim is impossible to verify, and it certainly shouldn't be uncritically accepted as fact. If true, it would mean Demosthenes was 1/4 Scythian. Since he looks 4/4 Nordic, you're going to have to come up with a better excuse.

would not even be a citizen under the Periclean citizenship law

Demosthenes was, of course, a citizen.

Whether Demosthenes looks "Nordic" to anon is irrelevant since Demosthenes was not a pure Greek. But, "anon", like his idol Arthur Kemp who posts Trojans, old women, maenads etc. as "blond Greeks" has some trouble finding his Nordic ideal among the Ancient Greeks.

>> One of his political claimed his grandmother was Scythian.

not "grandmother".

I see you have a wonderful grasp of "your" history. Here is the actual claim:

"This man’s father was Demosthenes of the Pæanian tribe, a citizen of repute (for I shall adhere strictly to truth). But how he stands as to family, with respect to his mother and her father, I must now explain. There was once in Athens a man called Gylon, who, by betraying Nymphæum in Pontus to the enemy, a city then possessed by us, was obliged to fly from his country in order to escape the sentence of death pronounced against him, and settled on the Bosphorus, where he obtained from the neighboring princes a tract of land called “The Gardens,” and married a woman who indeed brought him a considerable fortune, but was by birth a Scythian; by her he had two daughters, whom he sent hither with a great quantity of wealth. One of them he settled—I shall not mention with whom, that I may not provoke the resentment of too many; the other Demosthenes the Pæanian married, in defiance of our laws, and from her is the present Demosthenes sprung—our turbulent and malicious informer. So that by his grandfather in the female line, he is an enemy to the state, for this grandfather was condemned to death by your ancestors; and by his mother he is a Scythian—one who assumes the language of Greece, but whose abandoned principles betray his barbarous descent."

Demosthenes was not a pure Greek

Just out of curiosity, do you consider yourself "more Greek" than Demosthenes? It would be quite funny if you do.

The issue here is not whether a certain individual's mother or gramdmother was a barbarian, neither whether or not he looked Nordic. Demosthenes is portrayed (by Anon) as a member of a "Nordic" aristocratic class, the members of which did not intermarry with "non Nordic" Greeks of the lower classes. For anyone with even the vaguest knowledge of Greek history, the notion that Greeks of any class would marry barbarians but not fellow Greeks of a lower class is simply laughable. There are plenty of examples of Greeks marrying barbarians and Anon has included two examples of Greeks with partial barbarian ancestry in his aristocrats. Therefore he has shot himself in the foot twice.

>Just out of curiosity, do you consider >yourself "more Greek" than Demosthenes? It would >be quite funny if you do.

LOL

All the science I see, which looks at population genetics on a worldwide level, separates European and nonEuropean 'Caucasions' into distinct groups. Now, I can keep on saying this, and the mediterocentrists can keep on denying it, but then I'll just tell third-party observers to check out Cavalli-Sforza, Nei and Roychoudhury, Rosenberg etc.
And, Dienekes, although I do agree with you on some things, you do need to look at these questions from a perspective different from that of just purely Greek.
Just because some European groups are outliers (which may have as much to do with drift, early population expansions etc, as much as it does with actual ancestry - unless some want to consider the extreme outlier Iceland as being non-European) doesn't obviate the basic concept of a distinction between European and nonEuropean genepools. By "distinction" I don't mean 100% separate with no overlap whatsoever - population genetics doesn't work that way. I mean what I say - distinct and different.

I thought Dienekes considers any native Greek-speaker (including Demosthenes) to be pure Greek. Otherwise, how can he call himself a pure Greek?

"Refuting RM" is advised to go find the "pure bred" aristocratic "Greek Nordics", rather than nitpicking about the extent of barbarian admixture of the few "Nordic-like" individuals he managed to find.

There are hundreds of pictures of Greeks in books like Gisela Richter's "Portraits of the Greeks". Since he is convinced of the "Nordic Greek" thesis, he should find a dozen "Greek Nordics" and we can all have a good laugh.

>> I thought Dienekes considers any native Greek-speaker (including Demosthenes) to be pure Greek. Otherwise, how can he call himself a pure Greek?

As I've mentioned before, in my posts about the "Ideal Citizenship Law", it is communion in the blood that makes one a member of an ethnic body, rather than exclusivity of blood.

Demosthenes was thus Greek. However, it is postulated by some that certain Greek classes were descended from the "Nordic" Proto-Greeks and Demosthenes is given as an example. Since biologically he was part barbarian, that is not a valid example.

E.g., the Greek foreign minister George Papandreou is Greek. However, biologically speaking he is only 25% Greek.

To me, a Greek is one of Greek ancestry who partakes in Greek paideia.

>> There are plenty of examples of Greeks marrying barbarians and Anon has included two examples of Greeks with partial barbarian ancestry in his aristocrats. Therefore he has shot himself in the foot twice.

Indeed, Themistocles and Miltiades were also part barbarian. Indeed, the notion that the aristocratic classes were more racially exclusive is just a fantasy that is not based on any concrete facts. We only have to look at the genealogy of European nobility to see how ethnically mixed they all are, in contrast to their peasant and bourgeois population which is much more homogeneous.

Rienzi wrote:

>> doesn't obviate the basic concept of a distinction between European and nonEuropean genepools.

All populations are within some genetic distance of each other -to a greater or lesser extent-. You need to present a valid reason why the genetic distance between the combined European and non-European Caucasoid gene pools merits the designation of a racial distinction. I can hardly accept that e.g., the Greeks belong to the same "sub-race" of Caucasoids as Finns and in a different "sub-race" than e.g., the inhabitants of the Eastern Mediterranean.

Legion Europa needs to de-politicize its science. But, before it does that, it needs to defend its unprecedented racial scheme with something more than a vague "they are genetically distinct".

Who, really, were the Scythians? There is alot of room for arguement, there. I guess since they could be classed as "barbarians", it would be a good political move within the ethos of the time to characterize a rival's ancestor as the product of ethnic "bastardization". The fact that Demosthenes' name made it this far through the dark and choking smoke of continental history marks him as a Founding Eurocrat in my eye, though for all I know my genotype may be as different from his as from my Austrolopithecine ancestors.

Dienekes, by your definition, a Negro with a dash of Greek ancestry, "who partakes in Greek paideia," is a Greek. Is that correct?

>> Dienekes, by your definition, a Negro with a dash of Greek ancestry, "who partakes in Greek paideia," is a Greek. Is that correct?

My definition is not ambiguous.

So "anon" continues his feminine whining, claiming partial Greeks with barbarian ancestry were representative of Greeks as a whole.

Using this reasoning, a person can claim Americans are mulatto by selecting an American with a biracial ancestry as if all Americans are biracial. Or Blacks can use pictures of Negroes in ancient Egypt to claim the Egyptians were Black.

He has more than shot himself in the foot: he has shown he totally lacks a brain and has a racial complex.

The question is not whether Demosthenes was more Greek than Dienekes; the question is why "anon" tries so hard to appropriate Greek culture and, thus, "be Greek."

Maybe he thinks Greeks are more virile than himself? ;-)

Ancient Greeks were not Nordic and the Aristocracy of all regions of ancient Greece composed by Mediterraneans and Alpines,after all Anthropologists.The Nordics,Nordic-Iranians,Corded,Celtics and all those just were Hellenized/assimilated people.

>>but I can rarely confuse a Greek for a Finn, an Englishman, a Saudi Arabian or a Moroccan.

I can confuse sometimes a Greek with an Englishman,because some Englishmen are not Angles
and Saxons but descendants of Greeks,(of very ancient Greeks...)and of Romans.

>>Just out of curiosity, do you consider yourself "more Greek" than Demosthenes? It would be quite funny if you do.

The few Nordics you can find in Greece by the ancient years,we the Greeks,I mean all Greeks,we consider them MIXED!

>>We only have to look at the genealogy of European nobility to see how ethnically mixed they all are,

All Kings and Queens of Europe are racially Mongrels and they came by different racial backgrounds,the modern "aristocratic classes" of Northern Europe are racially mixed with Mediterraneans and Balts.Can anyone imagine Britain without Mediterranean blend?I can't.Can anyone imagine Greece,Italy,Spain,Portugal and many other Aryan(Euro-Caucasoid whatever)
countries without Nordics?Yes everybody.There,you got your answer now.

Truth hurts.