"However, in the study of mtDNA sequences only the female lineages are taken into account, whereas Mongoloid morphological traits in the Russians,revealed by anthropologists (Alekseeva, 1973),might have been derived from male migrants."

Yeah, well I guess those "Mongoloid morhological traits" must've just got there all on their own, because Russians show EXTREMELY few Mongoloid markers in terms of:

a) The male y-chromosome

b) Autosomal DNA

Now, many mixed Caucasoid/Mongoloid populations in Central Asia carry HG3 (R1a, EU19), the most common gene in Russia, so males from these gene pools may have contributed to the Russian gene pool without leaving a trace, as it were.

BUT, that's not likely.

And that's because the populations that also carry HG3 that I mentioned also carry most other classic East Asian markers.

If males from these gene pools invaded Russia, even if most of them carried HG3, there would still have to be others carrying Mongoloid markers.

But none of these markers are present in Russia. Where, oh where did they go I ask everyone? Hmmm...now there's a mystery.

And then there's the issue of HG16 - a supposedly Mongoloid gene. Russians carry 2-14% of this marker in various parts of the country.

But the populations that carry a lot of it are in fact morphologically almost identical to the Finns. They are also some of the blondest people in Russia. Certainly blonder than those carrying more of HG3 and HG2.

My god, so we have another mystery on our hands. But I don't think all of HG16 is Mongoloid, because that haplogroup can be broken up into sub-types. This is why some of the blondest and most Nordic populations in Europe, like the Estonians and Finns, carry over 40% of HG16 and still look like they do.

What I propose is that Russians don't, in fact, have Mongoloid morphological features. And this has been backed up my detailed studies in Russia during the Communist years.

Here are some links, Mr Dienekes, to back up what I'm saying...

Russian Autosomal DNA (scroll down to main article)
http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/Science_2002_v299_2381-2385.pdf

Russian Y-chromosome markers (just an abstract, but I have two full reports from this study)
http://ipsapp007.kluweronline.com/content/search/5143/11/13/abstract.htm?Action=view&collection=kap&QueryZip=j%3D5143+and+%28%28mongoloid%29%3Cin%3Ebody%29+AND+DDATE%3C%3D09%2F18%2F2003&ViewTemplate=V1.hts&ResultTemplate=s1.hts&ResultField=11E2E2E23070&VDKVgwKey=%5C%5Cipsnetapp001%5Chome%5Cjournals_protected%5CKAP_RUGE%5CIssues%5C2001-37-10%5Ctexts%5Ckap.363648.html&DocOffset=5&J=5143&I=11&A=13&T=0&U=1&vLoc=S1&hUAIN=4&VPgNum=1

And here's an interesting article on Russian morphological features, and other stuff...

http://www.skadi.net/forum/showthread.php?p=42663#post42663

Hope that helps out...

Regards,

The Polak

Oh, I should also add that that article on Russian mtDNA is not entirely accurate.

Russians don't have less than 3% Mongoloid mtDNA.

They in fact have less than 1.5% mtDNA.

Two recent studies have shown Russians to have from 0-1.5% Mongoloid mtDNA.

I would post these studies here, but since I'm only allowed to post links, and there aren't any to these studies, then you all just have to take my word for it.

Laters

Oops, yes, in some parts of Russia the East Asian mtDNA goes up to 3%.

But on average it's 1.2-1.5%.

Oops, I gave the wrong link up top - to another mtDNA study, instead of the Y-chromosome study that I have on my comp.

Russian anthropologists have indeed commented on the Mongoloid admixture in Russians. In addition to Alexeeva, we have:

G. F. Debets:

In all probability, the distinctions of Russians from Caucasians should not be explained by the fact that the eyelid structure of Northern Europeans is different from that of Southern Europeans, but by the fact that the Russians absorbed elements which are characterized by some Mongoloid traits.

As for HG16, regardless of its ultimate origin (which is more likely to be Mongoloid, rather than Europeoid), it arrived in Europe from a region of the world that was host to a mixed-race Mongoloid-Europeoid population.

That wasn't a Russian study, that was a Lithuanian study.

I don't think you're aware of the difference there Dienekes?

There has always been a view in the Baltics and even in Poland that the Russians are just a mix of Slavs and the Mongol hordes.

This has undoubtfully influenced studies on the Russians, and I know that this was a view held by many respected scholars in Poland.

And there has always been a confusion between the features of north-eastern Europeans and Mongols.

Latest genetic tests prove that classic East Asian markers are down to a bare minimum in Russians and Ukrainians.

And they're at 0% in Belorussians!

Tat-C is not a Mongolid gene. Because if it was, the Finns would be Mongolids. But they're not.

Not only that, but Tat-C has the highest frequence in the Finns and Balts barring a few very isolated and probably inbred Eskimo groups.

Here is an interesing map...

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9306

By the way, the classic Mongoloid gene marker HpaI morph 1 has never been found in Russia during any study.

The only place it has ever been found in Europe is GREECE.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7916320&dopt=Abstract

Polak, please don't spam this blog with your whining. You have been given due warning more than once.

Dienekes: “Polak, please don't spam this blog with your whining. You have been given due warning more than once.”

What “whining” are you talking about, Dienekes?

Why the hostility?

Are you upset about the fact that “Polak” pointed out that the only place in Europe where HpaI morph can be found is Greece?

“Polak” provides solid scientific info and his posts are excellent. He’s not wasting anyone’s time.

“This is why some of the blondest and most Nordic populations in Europe, like the Estonians and Finns, carry over 40% of HG16 and still look like they do.”

Since I’m from that part of the world, as well as being blond and light blue-eyed, I probably carry HG16. It’s difficult to believe that HG16 is mongoloid when you have my phenotype.

>> Are you upset about the fact that “Polak” pointed out that the only place in Europe where HpaI morph can be found is Greece?

No, I was rather referring to the childish and irrelevant entry about the 0.8% Mongoloid mtDNA in Greece (cum a childish capitalization of GREECE) that has absolutely no bearing on the topic of this post which is about the 3% Mongoloid mtDNA in Russians. I was also referring to his childish question "I don't think you're aware of the difference there Dienekes?". One can have a discussion without speaking with the mentality of a pre-adolescent.

>> Since I’m from that part of the world, as well as being blond and light blue-eyed, I probably carry HG16. It’s difficult to believe that HG16 is mongoloid when you have my phenotype.

There are many blond, blue-eyed people with obvious Mongoloid admixture. Having blond hair and blue eyes is not evidence against Mongoloid admixture.

"There are many blond, blue-eyed people with obvious Mongoloid admixture."

Oh?

Really?

:)

Well, it can't that "obvious". Asians aren't normally know to be a blond, blue-eyed people.

The hybrids have black hair, dark eyes, and Asian features, no?

If a small Mongoloid component is absorbed in a larger Caucasoid population, then after many generations of interbreeding the Mongoloid component will spread out over the whole population which will retain its Caucasoid character while occasional recombination of genes will result in Mongoloid morphological traits manifesting themselves in particular individuals.

Spamming???

What do you mean spamming? I've presented a heap of interestinf data and yes, some interesting comments too.

Anyway, yes, Caucasoid/Mongoloid hybrids can be blond.

BUT what we have here are some of the blondest populations in the world.

And not only are they blond, but they are morphologically very Caucasoid and in fact very Nordic.

I'm talking about the Estonians, Finns and northwest Russians here.

If the Finns reall had a rate of 60% of a Mongoloid gene in them, we'd know it.

Many Central Asian populations, which are a mix of Nordic and Mongoloid, carry about 50% of Y-chromosome or mtDNA of East Asian genes.

And guess what, they are very brunet and not very Nordic looking at all.

>> BUT what we have here are some of the blondest populations in the world.

Of course, since the origin and highest concentration of blondism is in the Baltic region, it is expected that they would in fact be one of the blondest populations in the world despite their Mongoloid admixture.

>> If the Finns reall had a rate of 60% of a Mongoloid gene in them, we'd know it.

The Finns have very low Mongoloid mtDNA. In contrast, the Saami who have high rates of Mongoloid Y-chromosomes and mtDNA tend to have even more Mongoloid features, even though they too are quite often blonde and light-eyed.

>> Many Central Asian populations, which are a mix of Nordic and Mongoloid, carry about 50% of Y-chromosome or mtDNA of East Asian genes.

Ah, no. Most Central Asian populations are not a mix of "Nordic" and Mongoloid, they are a mix of CAUCASOID and Mongoloid. There is no reason to believe that the Caucasoids contributing to admixed Central Asian groups were depigmented to a great degree, let alone comparable to those of the Baltic.

Indeed, evidence suggests that the Caucasoid component is of southern rather than eastern European (let alone Nordic) origin.

Origin of Caucasoid-Specific Mitochondrial DNA Lineages in the Ethnic Groups of the Altai–Sayan Region

Russian Journal of Genetics
38 (9): 1098-1103, September 2002

Taking into consideration possible contribution of southern Caucasoid and eastern European components to the formation of the anthropological type of Altai–Sayan ethnic groups, distribution of the revealed Caucasoid mtDNA lineages among the ethnic groups of the Central Asia, Western Asia, Caucasus, and Eastern Europe was examined. The applied approach permitted identification of 60% of mtDNA types the majority of which had southern Caucasoid origin. Less than 10% of mtDNA types were of eastern European origin.

I think if you want to know how the Europid people of Central Asia looked like you should look 1. At today Tadjiks and Nordindic Aryan populations and the Tarim mummies in china.
I think all of this 3 elements and some (maybe indo-european) proto nordics lived in central asia before it was lost to the Mongols.

"Anyway, yes, Caucasoid/Mongoloid hybrids can be blond."

Interesting. Got any pictures?

The hybrids have black hair, dark eyes, and Asian features, no?

first generation hybrids are not likely to have such features due to simple dominance-recessive effects. on the other hand a population that re-crosses hybrids will reassort their genes in such a way that a variety of combinations will arise in hardy-weinberg equilibrium (assuming no great level of assortive mating). so it is wholly plausible someone with black dark hair & eyes and europoid features could be found in this population, and someone with blond hair and asiatic features, as well as the more common combination of dark hair & eyes and mixed features, etc. etc. etc. i have seen some pictures of auburn haired light-eyed uighers that still showed some "mongoloid" facial features, obviously because they were not first generation hybrids.

interesting, in brazil, they have terms for the two exteme phenotype combinations of black and white-blond hair, blue eyes & light skin and kinky hair and african features, and dark hair, eyes, skin with straight hair & euroopoid features. obvious neither phenotype is a first generation hybrid that is common in the non-latin world. when i lived in new york, i did meet a girl from a "black" family that had the first phenotype, though her hair was red instead of blond, it was somewhat disconcerting because she was so shifted from normal conceptions of what human races should look like-but such people will become more common with the progression of ethnolysis.

FB,

No, I don't have any pics here.

But yes, over several generations, blondism may come out again in people who have Mongoloid or Native American heritage.

Cameron Diaz is a good example.

But the point I'm making here is that the Finns have 60% Tat-C. That's one of the highest rates in the world.

There is no way that a population like that, with the vast majority of male lineages being Mongoloid is going to look Nordic.

It's just impossible.

Tat-C cannpt be a Mongoloid lineage because the Finns are not Mongoloid.

Not only that, but the Lithuanians carry 47% Tat-C, and they don't have any Miongoloid morphological features.

So how come the Russians, at 0-14% Tat-C look Mongoloid????

Pffff.

And Dienekes, what passes for southern European mtDNA in that report?

You are aware that they may mean Finno-Ugrian by saying eastern European.

Also, do you realise that Slavs show quite a bit of "southern European" mtDNA???

Yes, they do. I point you to an article on THIS very website. Happy reading...

"This testifies to a hypothesis that ancestors of modern
Slavs originally diverged from South European populations
to form an individual branch."

000205.html

What do you say to that?

"Cameron Diaz is a good example."

A good example of what?

I thought she was Cuban and German, no?

>> What do you say to that?

I say, first, that you should learn to organize your thoughts in paragraphs. Second, I'm well aware that Slavs contain a southern Europeoid component. What point you are trying to make by this, God only knows. The southern Europeoid component in Central Asians was brought into the discussion because it was alleged that these are a mixture of "Nordic" and Mongoloid.

Polak: "No, I don't have any pics here."

No pics, no deal. :)

Hello Mr P,

Yes, Cameron Diaz also has some native American ancestry. In fact, many Nordic looking American actors have a bit of it.

But anyway, the point I was making by showing you that Slavs are partly "southern European" is that those Central Asians are probably more closely related to us then to southern Europeans.

The fact that these gene markers were called southern European means very little.

They are proto-european mtDNA genes that made their way to southern Europe, and other parts of Europe, as well as to cenral Asia.

To say that southern Europeans somehow contributed to the central Asian gene pool is absurd.

Thos Siberians are partly Scythian, and this is why they have this so called "southern European" component.

As we all know, the central Asian whites, of Kurgan, Iraniana and Tocharian were more often than not what we would describe as Corded.

Skeletal remains prove this.

In other words, they were tall, more robust kind of Mediterranean, and probably as depigmented as many northern, central and eastern Europeans today.

By extension, they looked like today's southern Russians. And it's no coincidence that these southern Russians today carry HG3 (R1a) and "southern European" mtDNA (ancient Iranian more like it).

So, Mr Dienekes, before you jump to massive conclusions please have a think about what these reports are actually saying. And perhaps you should try reading the whole thing and looking at the data? What do you think?

>> But anyway, the point I was making by showing you that Slavs are partly "southern European" is that those Central Asians are probably more closely related to us then to southern Europeans.

You have not made that point. The authors explicitly state that the Caucasoid component in the populations in question is mostly of southern Europeoid origin. Whether or not Slavs are also partly of southern Europeoid origin does not indicate in any way that they "are more closely related to you then (sic) to southern Europeans".

Also, southern Europeoid does not equal southern European. Please pay some attention to what you read.

>> In other words, they were tall, more robust kind of Mediterranean, and probably as depigmented as many northern, central and eastern Europeans today.

>> By extension, they looked like today's southern Russians.

Exactly, and the main racial component in southern Russians is the Pontic Mediterranean and certainly southern Russians do not reach Nordic levels of depigmentation.

Incidentally, Russians are in no way "Corded". They are mainly Pontic Mediterranean, Baltic and Uralic.

Well, many Russians are "corded" Nordics but sometimes its a difficult question wheter this people are descendents from the early Slavs, the Iranians, the Germanic tribes or even Finno-Ugrians.
But most people which have at least "corded" features in Russia look to me mixed, mainly with Alpins in a wider sence and Lappids (Ladogan of Coon).
But there is the Triangle of "Pensa-Tambow-Saratow" which said Coon and some studies to be more Nordic than the rest of Russia.
Maybe Polak or Dienekes you know something about studies of this region whether archaological, anthropological/anthropometric or genetic ones.
Would be interesting.
And what would be interesting too is if somebody know something about the Ossetian type.

Tat-C cannpt be a Mongoloid lineage because the Finns are not Mongoloid.

you really shouldn't base a positive theory on just one line of evidence-ie; the Tat-C y chromosomal haplotype. founder effect might have been strong on a group like the finns who i suspect did not have a large population in antiquity. additionally, one could postulate that a small group of mongoloid males exchanged females with their european neighbors. each successive generation, the europoid portion of the autosomal DNA would increase, but the y chromosomal lineage might remain intact.

in any case, the evidence from TAT-C is pretty confusing as far as the diversity in finns indicating that they are the original group, while the later siberian ones were the result of migration/founder effect, etc. but the key is not to blow any one given marker or haplotype out of proportion-which is what the ideologues that you guys are talking about seem to do.

Maybe its the other way around and Finno-Ugrian males were the male ancestors of many Mongoloids.
I mean I dont know how far TAT-C is going geographically in East Asia, maybe somebody can clear this up.
But if its strong just in North Asia a contribution of at least Proto-Europid people seems to me reasonable.

Judging from this map it seems at least possible to argue like that:
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=9306

I mean I dont know too much about the marker, is this marker very old? If so he could be older than the separation of Mongoloids and Caucasoids.
I'm just brainstorming...

Tat-C is a recent mutation (less than 5Kya old) and it arose in Siberia which was populated by a Mongoloid population base with subsequent Caucasoid accretions. Hence, the people who brought Tat-C into Europe were partially Mongoloid, just as we would suspect from the palaeoanthropological record which bears the existence of a flat-faced mongoloid type as one of the racial elements contributing to the formation of race in the Baltic region.

Its really difficult to believe if the numbers are right.
I personally wouldnt have wondered if the Finns would have had Mongoloid markers up to 20 per cent, but maybe even higher is really interesting to explain...
Because Mophological features doesnt represent in any way such an huge admixture.

Chris, razib explained that single markers are often affected by drift. Therefore 60% Mongoloid Y chromosomes does not imply 30% Mongoloid makeup. It means an introgression of Mongoloid genes into northeastern Europe, that is also consistent with historical-linguistic data as well as physical anthropological observations.

Southern Russians are not just Pontic Mediterranean.

They mostly Corded Nordic.

And yes, they are very blond compared to most Europeans.

Russians don't differ all that much in pigmentation from nort to south.

The Russians just north of the Caucasus, for example, are still very blond.

Western books showing otherwise are just nonsense.

So much rubbish has been written in the west about eastern europe that it's ridiculous.

>> Southern Russians are not just Pontic Mediterranean.

>> They mostly Corded Nordic.

According to Bunak, the main racial elements in Russians are Baltic, Pontic and Uralic. Only the Pontic type, which is frequent in southern Russia is long-headed, but it also carries a brunet tendency and a tendency to low-headedness, i.e., is neither Corded nor Nordic. The information was linked above. Rubbish about eastern Europe may have been written in the west, however Bunak was not western.

If you have some expert opinions that postulate the existence of a "Corded Nordic" element in Southern Russia, please post them. Otherwise, this discussion which has veered off the topic is best continued in the Racial Anthropology Discussion Group.

"Chris, razib explained that single markers are often affected by drift. Therefore 60% Mongoloid Y chromosomes does not imply 30% Mongoloid makeup."

Well, I understood Razib but there must have been some sort of extreme conditions that SUCH a drift could come to existence.
Really an extreme case anyway.

About the "corded" discussion I said that this triange in central Russia it probably predominantely Nordic. That said Coon of course.
When Bunak said the majority, he could just mean that the most Nordics in Russia are mixed and the pure are not representative for the Russians in whole.
This doesnt have to mean that they are still a major factor and in some regions quite numerous.
To said even Coon and Eickstedt, and some German scientists that in Southern Russia there are Nordics. (Some said because of the Goths)

>> Well, I understood Razib but there must have been some sort of extreme conditions that SUCH a drift could come to existence.
Really an extreme case anyway.

Finns are descended from a very small number of males. Their Y-chromosomes went through a bottleneck. This is the reason for the "Finnish Disease Heritage". And, drift operates in small populations, exactly as one would expect the northeastern Europeans to be at the time that Uralic languages were introduced.

Also, with respect to Nordics in southern Russia, as per Coon and von Eickstedt. Doubtlessly they exist, but they are not an important racial component, either in Russians in general, let alone in southern Russians. Coon and von Eickstedt wrote their books in the 1930s by compiling secondary and tertiary material. You should read the Soviet anthropologists (in particular V.V. Bunak) rather than rely on outdated material.

I am closing this discussion which has become repetitive and veered off its course. If anyone has something to add, do it at the Racial Anthropology Discussion Group.