October 29, 2003
The Northern Pontic Race
Three major types, the central Great Russian, the Polesian, and the Ryazan are considered by V. V. Bunak to be derived from a pigmented "Northern Pontic race," which he considers to be the northeastern branch of the Mediterranean race (cf. R. Biasutti, Le raze ei popoli della terra, UTET, Turin : vol. 2, p. 207):
Russians of Northern Pontic type:
Russian of Ryazan type:
Yeah, less than 5% of light brown/hazel/yellow eyes, 50% of pure light eyes (that's lighter than in Scandinavia), hair blondism at levels characteristic for Northern Europe, correlation of lower CI with lighter pigmentation, absence of black hair, R1a - EVERYTHING points to the Mediterranian racial type.
PS. I like the pics. Any more available?
Posted by: EGR at October 29, 2003 11:21 AM"Pigmented" indeed! (by the way there is no Ryazan type - there is a Don-Sursk type and a Steppe type which belong to the Northern Pontic group).
Some data from Bunak:
Anthropometry for Don-Sursk Anthropological Zone:
Head length: 192
CI 79.6
Facial height 125.8mm
Maximum Facial breadth 139.8mm
FI 90.8
NI 63.2
Pure light eyes 50%
Dark eyes (light brown and yellow) 7%
Light hairs 30%
Concave noses 4%
Up-tilted noses 28%
Steppe (Penza-Tambov) Anthropological Zone:
CI: 79.3
Facial Height: 125.2mm
Maximum Facial Breadth: 140.3mm
FI: 90.5
NI: 63.1
Height: 167.5cm
% pure light eyes: 37.5
% dark eyes: 9
% light hairs: 20
% concave noses: 13
% upturned noses: 30
Source: Origins and Ethnic History of the Russian People According to Anthropological Data, Table 22, p. 155.
Even in the black-and-white pictures you posted, its obvious that their eyes are light.
Bunak was right when he wrote that Central Russians belong to that type as well, so it's not only Southern groups, but the majority of Russians, united by T.I. Alexeeva in the Central Eastern European Race.
Posted by: EGR at October 29, 2003 11:45 AMEGR wrote
- Bunak was right when he wrote that Central Russians belong to that type as well, so it's not only Southern groups, but the majority of Russians, united by T.I. Alexeeva in the Central Eastern European Race.
Indeed. Northern Pontic = Nordic-Iranian. Southeastern Russians (i.e. Don-Sursk and Steppe Russians) are the most typical representatives of this type, but Central Russians are also Nordic-Iranians, albeit brachycephalized by various evolutionary pressures.
Posted by: Prodigal Son at October 29, 2003 12:10 PM"brachycephalized by various evolutionary pressures."
I dont think its about evolutionary pressures.
Two factors are more important: Admixture (mainly (East-)Alpines, Borreby and Ladogan (Lappid) but also Mongolid.
And nutrition. I heard that malnutrition leads to shorter heads and body height.
Would be interesting to measure there now...
Chris wrote:
- I dont think its about evolutionary pressures.
Bunak stated so explicitly.
- Two factors are more important: Admixture (mainly (East-)Alpines, Borreby and Ladogan (Lappid) but also Mongolid.
Mongoloid mtDNA is found at a frequency of apprxomately 1% in Central Russia, and Tat-C, which may or may not be of Mongoloid origin is found at a frequency of 6-7%. Uralic influence is not detected via anthropological means. The brachycephalization of Central Russians occured without significant foreign admixture according to Bunak.
- And nutrition. I heard that malnutrition leads to shorter heads and body height.
That's possible.
- Would be interesting to measure there now...
Well, the latest anthropological survey on Great Russians was done in 1950-1959. 17,000 individuals (males and females) from 107 regional groups were measured. I'll post anthropometry for Central Russians in a moment.
Regards.
In fact, Bunak proved back in the 1930s that brachycephalization and concomitant morphological changes occur without foreign admixture. All anthropologists since then (except Coon, whose work has largely been discredited)have affirmed this principle. Apparently, it can go both ways: brachycephalization and 'dolicocephalization' (is that a word? it is now) can happen without foreign admixture.
- Debrachycephalization of Croatians
Secular change in body height and cephalic index of Croatian medical
students (University of Rijeka)
Alena Bureti-Tomljanovi et al.
Abstract
An investigation of body height and cephalic measurements was
performed among five groups of first-year medical students of the
University of Rijeka School of Medicine (Rijeka, Croatia). Body
height and different cephalic measurements showed normal
distribution, both in male and female students. Differences between
measured variables were statistically analyzed by ANOVA. No
significant difference with regard to year of birth was found in
either males or females. The cephalic index showed no statistically
significant difference between sexes or with regard to body height,
while head breadth and length correlated significantly with birth
year and body height, both in males and females. Head breadth
decreased within the study period, while head length increased.
Results were compared with those of similar studies from the mid-20th
century. Student's t-test showed a significant change of cephalic
indices and other head measurements, but not of body height, in
males. The frequency difference between various head shapes was
tested using the chi-square test. A significant increase of
dolichocephalic and mesocephalic and a significant decrease of
brachycephalic head shape were found in both sexes. These results
suggest a continuity of the debrachycephalization process observed in
our population at the past midcentury. Am J Phys Anthropol 2003. ©
2003 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
"The brachycephalization of Central Russians occured without significant foreign admixture according to Bunak."
Well, they not dinariced, at least not fully, so I would say even low admixture by Alpines and Mongoloids could be responsible for a tendency towards brachycephalisation.
Maybe there was a selection in direction of the mixed.
But in such a short time a total evolutionary trend for brachycephalisation on the basis of the Genotype is something I dont believe normally.
Maybe it can be proved in the future but so far I heard no sufficient arguments for the brachycephalisation without any admixture in leptomorph Europid groups.
Beside nutrition of course, but thats for me no evolutionary trend as long as it is not important for changes in the Genotype.
Posted by: Chris at October 29, 2003 12:59 PM>>>Well, they not dinariced, at least not fully, so I would say even low admixture by Alpines and Mongoloids could be responsible for a tendency towards brachycephalisation.
I don't object. However, the very same assumption shall be made about the cause of brachycephalization of Germans, Scandinavians and Britons, and all Balkan Nations, and Italians. They all have Alpine and comparable level of Mongoloid admixture. Don't you think so, Chris?
Posted by: EGR at October 29, 2003 01:02 PM>>>Maybe it can be proved in the future but so far I heard no sufficient arguments for the brachycephalisation without any admixture in leptomorph Europid groups.
You just need to read more, Chris.
Central Russians, anthropometry.
- CI: 81.2
Facial height: 126.6 mm.
Maximum Facial Breadth: 141.2 mm.
FI: 89.7
NI: 62.5
Height: 167.7 cm.
% pure light eyes: 47
% light hairs: 30
% concave noses: 4
% up-tilted noses: 20
Source: Proishozhdenije i Etnicheskaja Istorija Russkogo Naroda po Dannym Antropologii (Origins and Ethnic History of the Russian People According to Anthropological Data), p. 155, table 22.
The Northern Pontic race is Mediterranean in origin according to anthropology. I'd be very interested in any sources that describe it as "Nordic", or "Nordic Iranian", ir "Corded" etc.
Even Coon, who though Nordics were a branch of Mediterraneans clearly indicates the brunetness and Mediterranean (in the strict sense) affiliation of the Pontic type:
Along the northern and western shores of he Black Sea are found, among other populations, brunet Mediterraneans of a generalized type, called Pontic by the Russian anthropologists, who are usually of medium to tall stature and who seem related on the one hand to the Atlanto-Mediterraneans and on the other to the long-faced Mediterranean prototype of Asia Minor and the Caucasus. Inland from the Black Sea shores they are found sporadically in Russia, Poland, and the countries along the upper course of the Danube. They also seem to form an early population level in Serbia and Albania.
Significantly, the 4 examples chosen by Coon to illustrate the Pontic Mediterranean race, a Bulgarian, Moldavian, Lithuanian/Polish, and Czech have, respectively, Black, Dark Brown, Dark Brown, Black hair and Dark Brown, Green-Brown, Dark Brown, Green Brown eyes.
Posted by: Dienekes at October 29, 2003 01:18 PMDienekes wrote:
- The Northern Pontic race is Mediterranean in origin according to anthropology. I'd be very interested in any sources that describe it as "Nordic", or "Nordic Iranian", ir "Corded" etc.
Well, Coon describes Russians of the Steppe Anthropological Zone, who have 37% pure light eyes, ~9% dark (light brown and yellow eyes) and 20% light hair as 'Nordic'.
- The Great Russians of a special area lying partly in the Tambov, Penza, and Saratov Governments, who form a mesocephalic nucleus in the country half way between Moscow and the mouth of the Volga, have been subjected to a detailed study (Debetz, G., AZM, 1933, pp. 34-57) which shows them to be essentially Nordic...
- Half of these Great Russians have wavy hair, the other half straight; the head hair is dark brown (Fischer #4-5) in 30 per cent of the series studied, and almost never black; it is medium brown (Fischer #6-10) in about 50 per cent, and light brown in most of the rest. Rufosity is rare, but at the same time most of the blondism falls on the golden side. About 8 per cent have brown eyes, nearly 30 per cent light, and the rest mixed.
And of course, Steppe Russians aren't even the blondest group that Russian anthropologists classify as Northern Pontic. Don-Sursk Russians have 50% pure light eyes, ~7% dark eyes and 29% light hairs, Even you cannot deny that as a population, they are very depigmented, more so that any population that is Mediterranean in the classic sense of the word.
G. F. Debetz noted simmilarities between Southern Russians and Scandinavians and assigned them [Southern Russians] to an intermediate branch (i.e. Nordic-Iranian):
- G. F. Debetz, having published the results of an investigation into the population of 5 regions in the Tambov-Hoper region, proved that the Eastern Great Russian type differs prodigiously from the sub-Uralic type. In many traits, this type [the Eastern Great Russian type] resembles the Scandinavian type; for example, cephalic index is inversely correlated with pigmentation of the iris. While studying the question of whether Tambov-Hoper Russians belonged to the Mediterranean race, G. F. Debetz noted that there were several intermediate forms between the Scandinavian [Nordic] race, and the population of the Black Sea shore, and that the Tambov-Hope type probably represents one of these intermediate forms. This conclusion does not conflict with the classification of the Tambov-Hoper type as part of the Pontic race.
Source: Alexeeva Tatiana Ivanovna, Bunak Viktor Valerianovich, et al. Origins and Ethnic History of the Russian People According to Anthropological Data, published by the Academy of Sciences of the USSR in 1965, page 16, parargaph 1.
Dienekes wrote:
Even Coon, who though Nordics were a branch of Mediterraneans clearly indicates the brunetness and Mediterranean (in the strict sense) affiliation of the Pontic type.
Again, one must differentiate between Southern Pontics and Northern Pontics, which are very distinct from each other.
Posted by: Prodigal Son at October 29, 2003 01:30 PM"They all have Alpine and comparable level of Mongoloid admixture. Don't you think so, Chris?"
Mongolid not at the same level, but Alpine/Borreby cant be denied in Germany.
"You just need to read more, Chris."
I didnt said it isnt possible on the long run, but not in such short times.
The data from Croatia just prove what I said, that mainly nutrition and environmental factors are important for first height increase and secondly Dolichocephalisation.
Same was true for the USA were many former short statured and brachycephalic people changed their character.
And I dont speak about selection, because I think about parents and children, grandchildren.
Such changes of Genotype some of you seem to assume are usually associated with admixture or need much more time.
Nutrition and environment can change much faster...
Are the Northern Pontic anything else but an intermediate type or mixture of Nordics and Pontic Mediterraneans?
Dark hair and blue eyes like the intermediate North-Atlantid type in the west of Europe.
Note that in the above excerpt from Origins and Ethnic History the term "Eastern Great Russian" refer to Southeastern Great Russians, i.e. Russians of the Steppe (Penza-Tambov, etc...) and Don-Sursk (Ryazan-Saratov, etc...) Anthropological Zones. These groups, with rates of pure eye blondism ranging from 30-50% and hair blondism from 20-30% were classified as part of the Northern Pontic race by Bunak.
Regards.
Posted by: Prodigal Son at October 29, 2003 01:39 PM>>>The Northern Pontic race is Mediterranean in origin according to anthropology.
Well, the Corded and Nordic races are Mediterranian as well, according to certain sources. So, what's your point? You insist that the type which is lighter eyed than the purest Scandinavian Nordics is Mediterranian? Go on. I don't object.
>>>I'd be very interested in any sources that describe it as "Nordic", or "Nordic Iranian", ir "Corded" etc.
See TRoE. C.S. Coon has characterized one single group of Southern Russians (either from the Don-Sursk or Don-Khoper group) as Corded Nordic...
Many Soviet anthropologists insisted that Nordics took part in ethnogenesis of Russians. According to a map by Bunak (1936), the entire Northern and most of NE Russia is mostly Nordic. The Eastern Great Russian/Ryazan/Eastern European type is a bit more pigmented subgroup of the Nordic Ilmen group (somewhat darker haired but a bit lighter eyed!).
Ancient Slavs who populated Southern Russia were of the very same type as Western Iranians (Alans), and Greek Nordic-Iranians (Angel).
>>>Even Coon, who though Nordics were a branch of Mediterraneans clearly indicates the brunetness and Mediterranean (in the strict sense) affiliation of the Pontic type
"They are found SPORADICALLY in Russia, Poland, and the countries along the upper course of the Danube". Sporadically, Dienekes. While the Central Eastern European type is THE MAIN racial type in Russia, thou being composite in origin it has the Baltic strain. But Russian Baltics are darker eyed than Russian "Pontics".
>> Well, Coon describes Russians of the Steppe Anthropological Zone, who have 37% pure light eyes, ~9% dark (light brown and yellow eyes) and 20% light hair as 'Nordic'.
That's very fine, but I did not ask for "Russians of the Steppe Anthropological Zone," I asked for Pontics described as Nordics. Coon described Pontics as Mediterraneans as did Bunak.
>> and that the Tambov-Hope type probably represents one of these intermediate forms. This conclusion does not conflict with the classification of the Tambov-Hoper type as part of the Pontic race.
This shows that the Tambov-Hope type is intermediate between the Black Sea population and the Scandinavian race. The Tambov-Hope type is one of the types of the Pontic race, it is not the Pontic race.
Posted by: DIenekes at October 29, 2003 01:49 PM"They all have Alpine and comparable level of Mongoloid admixture. Don't you think so, Chris?"
Mongolid not at the same level, but Alpine/Borreby cant be denied in Germany.
=====
Comparing Northern Germans with Bielorussians/Central Russians the former have greater Mongoloid admixture, whether TAT-C is Mongoloid or not. Scandinavians have the same level of Mongoloid admixture, and Britons and the French have lower, but the Balkan Nations - higher.
"You just need to read more, Chris."
I didnt said it isnt possible on the long run, but not in such short times.
The data from Croatia just prove what I said
======
I didn't say you should read more on-line PDFs, I refered you to scientific literature. Brachycephalization was studied profoundly and it was proven, concerning Russians and Bielorussians, that it happened not because of foreign admixture.
Chris wrote:
Are the Northern Pontic anything else but an intermediate type or mixture of Nordics and Pontic Mediterraneans?
They are certainly intermediate, but considering their high rates of eye and hair blondism (30-50% and 20-30% respectively), they certainly seem closer to Nordics proper rather than dark-pigmented Mediterraneans. Genetically, they are descended from the Kurgan population that originated Indo-European speech.
- [There is] is mesocephalic type, with a cephalic index of 79-80, inhabiting 16 regions within the area of the former Ryazan, Tambov and Penza departments. This zone is located between tributaries of the Oka river, tributaries of the Tsna and Moksha rivers, as well as the upper tributaries of the Don. Nowhere else in the area inhabited by ethnic Russians is such a high concentration of mesocephalic indices found. This type is also found among Erzya Mordvins [which would explain why all the Mordvins I know look Nordic]...
...
The Tambov-Penza type is more ancient [than the Valdaic type] and has to a great measure preserved the specialties of the ancient Kurgan population.
...
>> Well, Coon describes Russians of the Steppe Anthropological Zone, who have 37% pure light eyes, ~9% dark (light brown and yellow eyes) and 20% light hair as 'Nordic'.
That's very fine, but I did not ask for "Russians of the Steppe Anthropological Zone," I asked for Pontics described as Nordics. Coon described Pontics as Mediterraneans as did Bunak.
======
See my answer. Also, the Khoper Russians are typical Russian Pontics.
>> and that the Tambov-Hope type probably represents one of these intermediate forms. This conclusion does not conflict with the classification of the Tambov-Hoper type as part of the Pontic race.
This shows that the Tambov-Hope type is intermediate between the Black Sea population and the Scandinavian race. The Tambov-Hope type is one of the types of the Pontic race, it is not the Pontic race.
=======
It is not "intermediate". It looks fairly similar, esp. if we'll take into consideration that the Black Sea Pontics have more South-Europid admixture.
So no chance to represent the Khoper Russians are Med-Nordic, Dienekes.
Dienekes wrote:
That's very fine, but I did not ask for "Russians of the Steppe Anthropological Zone," I asked for Pontics described as Nordics. Coon described Pontics as Mediterraneans as did Bunak.
Coon classifies Russians of the "Steppe Anthropological Zone" as Nordics, and Bunak classifies them as part of the Northern Pontic race. Therefore, they are Northern Pontics descibed as Nordics.
Regards.
Posted by: Prodigal Son at October 29, 2003 02:00 PMThey are certainly intermediate, but considering their high rates of eye and hair blondism (30-50% and 20-30% respectively), they certainly seem closer to Nordics proper rather than dark-pigmented Mediterraneans. Genetically, they are descended from the Kurgan population that originated Indo-European speech.
=========
They're intermediate IN PIGMENTATION OF HAIRS. They're are not the mix of Nordics and Meds. There might be a weak Med/Alpine strain in Northern Pontics, which became minor in the Black Sea (Southern) Pontics, still originally this type is not Nordic/Med.
It's impossible to classify Pontics as Meds, as even the most pigmented Pontid groups have only 15% of brown eyes.
Posted by: EGR at October 29, 2003 02:03 PMWell, as Dienekes likes quotes, Prodigal, translate please the piece in which Bunak says that Southern (Eastern) Slavs and Iranians belonged to the Pontic/North-Pontic racial type.
And after that I'll post metrical stats on Iranian-Nordics by Angel and on Southern Slavs by Bunak.
Simple.
Posted by: EGR at October 29, 2003 02:10 PM"I didn't say you should read more on-line PDFs, I refered you to scientific literature."
I read scientific literature, do not worry about my knowledge in general, just on specific topics I need still to learn and thats one of the reasons because I'm here on this site.
I think you just brought some things in a mess.
Thats mainly because I and others refer to English and German anthropologists, which always said Pontic = East European dark mediterranean type, the blond dolichocephalic type = Nordic.
Its always difficult to say where to draw the borderline.
I tend to call the fair type Nordic and the pigmented Pontic.
And there dont have to be too much foreigners, there always were and still are Eastalpines in Russia.
I said that environmental factors can change the head shape, the only thing I say is that you cannot call that an evolutionary trend because it doesnt change necessarily the Genotype.
And its something not very plausible to say that there is more Mongolid admixture in Germany than in Russia.
Maybe in some Russian regions there is a lower Mongolid admixture, but in general not.
Northern Pontic = Nordics with Eastalpine admixture in my opinion. But predominantely Nordic.
Posted by: Chris at October 29, 2003 02:33 PM>>>Thats mainly because I and others refer to English and German anthropologists, which always said Pontic = East European dark mediterranean type, the blond dolichocephalic type = Nordic.
Its always difficult to say where to draw the borderline.
Interesting, which German or English anthropologist used the term "Pontic"?
>>>I tend to call the fair type Nordic and the pigmented Pontic.
The Pontic type is not pigmented. It's comparatively (with other Russian groups) darker, but not pigmented as Mediterranians. Pontics proper have lighter eyes than the purest Norwegian Nordics, have no black hairs and have as much lightish hairs as most Northern Europeans.
And there dont have to be too much foreigners, there always were and still are Eastalpines in Russia.
=======
East-Alpines are confined to Ukraine.
And its something not very plausible to say that there is more Mongolid admixture in Germany than in Russia.
=======
Plausible or not, I'm talking about DNA.
Maybe in some Russian regions there is a lower Mongolid admixture, but in general not.
=======
Those some Russian and Bielorussian regions are bigger than the entire Germany. Also, almost all ethnic Russian live there. Of course, there are a lot of East Finns, Turkics and Mongols in Russia. So, in general, yep, Mongoloid admixture is much higher :-)
Northern Pontic = Nordics with Eastalpine admixture in my opinion. But predominantely Nordic.
==========
East-Alpine? Yep, Southern Pontic is Pontic + East-Alpine. No problem.
So in your opinion all Russians are pure Nordic? ^^
There are many Nordics, some regions even predominantely, but Russia in general has strong Alpine, Borreby, East-Alpin and Lappid admixture.
How strong the Mongolid admixture is, that is still in question.
According to the Soviet anthropologists Pontic/Corded is the main racial type in RUSSIANS.
Most of Russians belong to the Central-East-European type, which is mostly Pontic, plus the Baltid component. Other Russians are Pontid+Baltid, Baltid, and Pontid+Nordic.
Alpine and East-Alpine strains are presented only on the Ukrainian border, Borreby strain is rather weak (but yep ancient graves contain the Borreby type), while Uralic admixture is weakly represented only in a few Russian peripheral groups.
Posted by: EGR at October 29, 2003 03:28 PMSo in your opinion all Russians are pure Nordic? ^^
========
Judge for yourself:
1. Russian PM - http://government.ru/government/minister/index.html?he_id=2
2. His deputies - http://government.ru/government/ministers/index.html?he_id=3
3. Ministers - http://government.ru/government/officials/index.html?he_id=4
EGR wrote:
Ministers - http://government.ru/government/officials/index.html?he_id=4
I don't really think that's a very representative inventory, since only 8/23 in that group are ethnic Russians. Here is the complete ethnic breakdown:
- 1. Vitalii Artukhov. Born in the Krasnodar Krai. His last name was Russianized by adding 'ov to Ukranian "Artukh".
2. Gennadii Bukaev. Morvinian.
3. Farit Gazizullin. Tatar.
4. German Gref. German.
5. Boris Gryzlov. Russian (hairs used to be light golden blond).
6. Vladimir Zorin. Russian.
7. Igor Ivanov. Jewish.
8. Sergei Ivanov. Russian.
9. Stanislav Ilyasov. Must be of Northern Caucasian (Muslim) origin
10. Ilia Klebanov. Jewish.
11. Mikhail Lesin. Jewish.
12. Konstantin Merzlikin. Russian.
13. Alexandr Pochinok. Russian (can be of Ukrainian origin).
14. Leonid Reiman. Jewish.
15. Alexandr Rumyantzev. Russian.
16. Vladimir filippov. Russian.
17. Sergei Frank. Jewish.
18. Jurii Chaika. Ukrainian.
19. Mikhail Shvydkoi. Jewish (Ukrainian).
20. Jurii Shevchenko. Ukrainian.
21. Sergei Shoigu. Tuvinian.
22. Ilia Uzhanov. Russian.
23. Igor Usufov. Jewish (Uzbek).
The pictures you showed are mostly non-Nordics with Nordic admixture.
I picked some which look more Nordic than the average to me no matter which ethnical group they belong to:
http://government.ru/government/minister/index.html?he_id=55
http://government.ru/government/minister/index.html?he_id=53
http://government.ru/government/minister/index.html?he_id=119
http://government.ru/government/minister/index.html?he_id=118
This last two are typical Nordic of the Russian type.
Do all Russians look like them? I dont think so...
In fact thats a strong minority and Nordic admixture is strong in Russia, but Alpin, Borreby and Lappid as well.
I saw many Russians and there is a strong brachymorph (Alpine and Lappid?) element there.
I dont say thats more important that the Nordic one, I just dont know, but I definetely know it has to be strong because I recognized it often under Russians.
Off-topic :
I don't think we've ever had an Uzbeki Jewish minister here in Israel, but there's one in Russia? I'm impressed. ;)
Posted by: Melnorme at October 29, 2003 04:49 PMWell, Russian corruption is a legend...
I'm always impressed how fast especially Jewish communists turned into hardline-capitalists without further moral.
But to the topic, this women are fair but are the Nordic (or Northern Pontic however..), I say no, they look rather Alpine.
http://66.223.116.4/photo/c/cl8913.jpg
http://66.223.116.4/photo/h/ht7180.jpg
http://66.223.116.4/photo/p/pn2112.jpg
Racial analyses of Russian politicians should be carried out in a different place. Also, some people here might object to Northern Pontics being considered a branch of the greater Mediterranean race, but that is how they are described in Soviet Anthropology. All sources that I have seen describe Pontics as Mediterraneans.
Soviet anthropologists DID NOT accept Coon's derivation of Nordics from Mediterraneans. In fact no continental anthropologists do. The Northern Pontic type is an offshoot of the Pontic type which belongs to the great Indo-Mediterranean (Southern Europeoid) race.
Posted by: Dienekes at October 29, 2003 05:15 PMRussian or Russian Jewish politics are not acceptable subject matter for this blog.
Posted by: Dienekes at October 29, 2003 05:17 PM>> According to the Soviet anthropologists Pontic/Corded is the main racial type in RUSSIANS.
The identity Pontic/Corded is incorrect. Pontics are the most ancient element in the Balkans and the Caucasus and are identified as the pre-Slavic element in Poland by Polish anthropologists. Typical Pontics like the Adygei of the Caucasus are also low-headed, unlike the Corded type.
I would like to see some reliable evidence for the identification of Pontics with Cordeds. (*) Pontics are an ancient race of the Black Sea littoral and are unrelated to the high-headed Central European Cordeds or the craniologically similar high-headed Iranian types of the Iranian plateau and Kazakhstan.
(*) No, tables from Bunak combined with amateur speculation do not count as reliable evidence.
Posted by: Dienekes at October 29, 2003 05:26 PM"Soviet anthropologists DID NOT accept Coon's derivation of Nordics from Mediterraneans. In fact no continental anthropologists do."
Well, I'm alway interested in theories about the Nordic source in Europe.
The Leptomorph Nordic type is so similar with Northern Mediterraneans (f.e. Atlantid and Pontic) and the Nordindid Populations from an morphological point of view that it is hard to say that this race derives from an completely different source.
From which of course? The question is just how long the two lines are separated...
Dienekes,
Do YOU consider the Eastern European Race (50% of pure light eyes and 5% of dark eyes, 20-35% of light hairs and no black hairs, pinkish-white skin etc) which is Northern Pontic according to Bunak as Mediterranian?
Do YOU consider the Nordic Race (40% of light eyes and about 10% of dark eyes, 20-50% of light hairs and no black hairs, pinkish-white skin etc) as Mediterranian?
Please note, I'm asking about YOUR opinion.
>>>Soviet anthropologists DID NOT accept Coon's derivation of Nordics from Mediterraneans.
Source?
Posted by: EGR at October 30, 2003 05:19 AM>>>No, tables from Bunak combined with amateur speculation do not count as reliable evidence.
Speculate for yourself:
Greek Nordic-Iranians - Vyatichis (Moscow) - Severyanes (SW Russia) - Alans
Cranial Length 189 - 189 - ? - ?
Cranial Breadth 140 - 140 - ? - ?
Basion-Bregma 135 - 135 - 136.7 - 136
Bizygomatic 131.5 - 129.5 - 130.5 - 131.3
CI 74 - 74 - 73 - 75
Nasal index 48 - 51 - 51.5 - 48
Data on Greek Nordic-Iranians is from Angel, on Slavs - from Bunak.
Posted by: EGR at October 30, 2003 05:23 AM>> Source?
You are the one who uses the Pontic/Corded/Nordic as if they are equivalent terms, but you have failed to provide any evidence that this is so.
>> Please note, I'm asking about YOUR opinion.
I don't have an opinion. The Soviet school studied a great number of traits to determine the ethnogenetic relationship of the various human races. Bunak thought the Northern Pontic race is associated with the Mediteraneans, not with the Nordics. I'll take his word for it over averages on two traits.
If I am to judge by the individuals chosen by Bunak to illustrate the Northern Pontic race, then I can without a doubt say that these are predominantly Mediterranean.
Posted by: Dienekes at October 30, 2003 02:07 PM>>>You are the one who uses the Pontic/Corded/Nordic as if they are equivalent terms, but you have failed to provide any evidence that this is so.
Same population was labeled as Pontic by Bunak, and as Corded by Coon.
Racial type of ansectors of that population was labeled as Pontic by Bunak, and Corded by Angel.
Enough for me nad for any reasonable man.
However, I've asked YOU to supply the source which says that "Soviet anthropologists DID NOT accept Coon's derivation of Nordics from Mediterraneans". I gather your answer means that you have no source, and this claim is based on your imagination only.
>>>I don't have an opinion. The Soviet school studied a great number of traits to determine the ethnogenetic relationship of the various human races. Bunak thought the Northern Pontic race is associated with the Mediteraneans, not with the Nordics. I'll take his word for it over averages on two traits.
Of course I knew what you'd answer :D
However, how's about Debetz, who found that lower CI is associated with lighter pigmentation and assured that the racial type in question is the intermediate form between Nordics and Mediterranians? How's about C.S. Coon who classified the racial type in question as Corded? How's about more recent opinion of Bunak, who assured that the racial type in question is just the more pigmented sub-type of the Ilmen-Dniepr type, which was considered by all Soviet anthropologists as Nordic?! Yeah, you cited a very old, outdated work of Bunak,later he collected more info and changed his mind.
However, as you knew about Debetz' (intermediate form) and Coon's (Corded) classification, why did you chose the Mediterranian label? Was it because of superior levels of eye blondism? Yeah, it must. I see know. Mediterranians, of course... I wonder how you'll deal with another opinion by Bunak, thou :D
>>>If I am to judge by the individuals chosen by Bunak to illustrate the Northern Pontic race, then I can without a doubt say that these are predominantly Mediterranean.
Of course they're, Dienekes. Their light eyes won't let classify them as not being "predominantly Mediterranean".
Posted by: EGR at October 30, 2003 03:34 PMI didn't ask you speculate based on your interpretation of various sources. Your identification of Pontics with Cordeds is based on collating information from two different sources who had a very different view of European ethnogenesis. Coon thought that "Cordeds" were similar to Irano-Afghans, East Africans and Atlanto-Mediterraneans.
It's quite simple, if Bunak said that Pontics were Nordics or Cordeds, he would have said so. You're the one who can speak Russian, so find one reference in Soviet Anthropology to "Northern Pontics" being Nordic, or Corded.
Incidentally, Bunak thought that the Ilmen-Dniepr type was Sub-Nordic -in the scheme of Deniker- and Fenno-Nordic -in the scheme of von Eickstedt (cf. Biasutti, supra).
Things are clear: Russians are composed of three racial elements: Pontic, Baltic, Uralic. [Source]
The Pontic is Mediterranean in origin. The Baltic is northern Europeoid in origin. The Uralic is Europeoid/Mongoloid in origin. Other elements exist, but they're not important.
Take any remaining speculation to the Racial Anthropology Discussion Group.
PS: Angel never studied any Russians and did not assert that modern-day Russians are descended from the prehistoric types he speculated about in his work in the eastern Mediterranean. He did identify the presence of the Dinaric and Mediterranean races in Poland though; these races are of southern European origin.
Posted by: Dienekes at October 30, 2003 04:18 PM