Well, this finding means that Germatic barbarians went home after conquering and looting. Actually, the same patterns of looting invation were observed in China and northern barbarians. They were motivated by bad year harvest in north tough lands. Great wall was quite effective preventing such looting invasion.

This study doesnt make sense. Germanic people were Indo-Europeans, in other words : aryans.

The aryan haplo group is HG3. This haplo group accounts for 25 % of Norway and only 6,2 % of Germany.

Therefore germanic (=aryan) ancestry is only a small minority in the Norwegians and Germans.

How can you measure the amount of Germanic blood in Southern-Europe brought by Norwegians and Germans if Norwegians and Germans themselves are not even germanic?

Interesting article.

However concerning the Renaissance, I believe that it was brodly caused by 2 factors:

1. Bubonic Plague - which reduced the population by 30% or more, thereby making the survivors substantially wealthier, and more likely to seek an education for their offspring.

2. The Fall of Constantinople to the Ottoman Turks - which caused a great deal of treasures, manuscripts, art and most importantly, highly educated priests, monks and elites to migrate wholesale to Venice and other ports in Northern Italy

Comments anyone?

Cheers,
Paul

It is interesting that some people try to bend data to justify their previous assumption. Scientifically, you should always respect true data. Explanation and theory should be based on data. Not other way around.

>> This study doesnt make sense. Germanic people were Indo-Europeans, in other words : aryans.

>> The aryan haplo group is HG3. This haplo group accounts for 25 % of Norway and only 6,2 % of Germany.

First of all, HG3 is considered typical of early Proto-Indo-Europeans only by those who ascribe to a northern Pontic theory of IE origins.

Second, if HG3 is "IE", that doesn't mean that it is also "Germanic". The Germans (like all other people) are a blend of IE descended Proto-Germans and natives.

Greetings from Galiza ( Galicia or Galice) and the Atlantic shore, we are a small country in the northwest of the Iberian Peninsula. We have our own language and cultural identity, and we are fighting for our national Sovereignty . It is true what Dienekes says about the germanic influence in Italy and Spain, but he forgets that a whole Germanic people, the Suevi, occupied the Galician coast and established the first Kingdom in Western Europe not submitted to the Roman Empire. Very few people knows these facts, but you can find in the Galician coast high frequencies of I*(xI1b2), higher than in germanic-speaking peoples, reaching values about 13-14%. We are at least 30-40% of germanic ancestry. We speak a language latin-derived, but our tradicional culture has much more germanic influence.
The reference:

Brion M, Sobrino B, Blanco-Verea A, Lareu MV, Carracedo A. Related Articles, Links
Hierarchical analysis of 30 Y-chromosome SNPs in European populations.
Int J Legal Med. 2004 Apr 17

Hilde, thanks for the info. I should note that I*(xI1b2) might include some I1b*(xI1b2) which would not be of Germanic origin. Also, since I1a itself originated in Franco-Cantabria and not in northern Europe, the remaining I percentage is not necessarily an indication of Germanic ancestry, but certainly sets an upper limit.

The frequencies reported in the study are quite higher than the ones in this post's study, which probably indicates that Galicians may have elevated levels of Germanic ancestry compared to other Iberians.

``Second, if HG3 is "IE", that doesn't mean that it is also "Germanic". The Germans (like all other people) are a blend of IE descended Proto-Germans and natives.```

Germanic people are indo-european (aryan), they have origins around the Black Sea, just like the Celts, Romans, Slavs etc. The fact that the aryan haplo group (HG3) is a minority in Scandinavia and Germany, just proves that the real Germanics moved out of the Ukraine and came to Scandinavia and Germany and imposed their language on the natives.

Result : modern day Scandinavians and Germans speak germanic languages, but racially they are not Germanic (aryan).

the I haplo group (also known as eu7) refers to the people who came to Europe and brought the Gravettian culture. During the ice age they settled in the Balkans.

The I people have nothing to do with the Germanics. Germanic people are aryan (indo-european). I people are not aryan.

Hilde

I thought that the Galicians considered themselves to be Celtic, not Germanic.

>> I thought that the Galicians considered themselves to be Celtic, not Germanic.

This is an interesting question. Being Irish I can vouch for the fact that Irish folklore and myth credits the "Milesians" as being a people who arrived from Northern Spain and conquered much of Ireland millenia ago, introducing their language and culture with them. Today q-Celtic is spoken in Ireland, which is believed to be closer linguistically to Celto-Iberian than the p-Celtic spoken by their neighbours the British and Welsh Celts.

So I suspect that Galicians were Celto-Iberians who were conquered by a military elite of Germanic descent, whose language or culture did not survive.

However it should also be considered that the original homeland of the Celts is modern day Austria and neighbouring areas, and those people termed Celtic today, are Celtic purely by culture and not by genetics, and are largely descendant of R1b (Aurignacian culture) people who survived the LGM in the Iberian refugium.

Comments anyone?

Cheers,
Paul

``and those people termed Celtic today, are Celtic purely by culture and not by genetics, and are largely descendant of R1b (Aurignacian culture) people who survived the LGM in the Iberian refugium.``

Exactly

And the same accounts for germanics. The people that are considered Germanic today (Scandinavians, Germans, English, Dutch, Austrians, German-Swiss, Flemish) are only Germanic by culture not by genetics.

I am Galician. We are a Nation with a latin-derived language, the Galician, father of the portuguese language. In pre-roman times our language was a celtic one or not celtic but closed to the celtic family according to others authors. We share with the welsh, irish or basques high levels of the Atlantic Modal Haplotype and the haplogroup 1,i.e. we are predominantly paleolithic europeans. However, despite our geographical situation we share with the germans high levels of the haplogroup I, and the spanish, basques or iberians in general have very low levels. It has a historical explanation: In the V century the Suevi cross the Rhine and established a Kingdom In Galiza ( http://www.kessler-web.co.uk/History/KingListsEurope/BarbarianSuevi.htm ) . Our traditional culture and the place names of our country reflect a strong germanic influence: Gondomar, Gunderedo, Marcosende, Gundim, Aralde, Urdilde, Guitiriz, Mondariz, Aldemunde...mainly in rural areas of the coast.
We are a autonomous country inside the Spanish state with our own Parliament and President, but we want to be free in Europe like the Basques or Scots.
Dienekes, I agree with your commentary " I should note that I*(xI1b2) might include... ", but I knew it and take it into account when I gave theses percentages. I excluded I1b* ( 0% in Galicians or basques), and I1b2( 6% in the Galician atlantic coast and in the basques, and 40% in Sardinians).
Congratulations for your page and your work. All the europeans are in debt with Plato, Heraclito, Pitagoras... and now Dienekes!

>>I1a is found in Portuguese (1.3%), Catalans (3.1%), northern Italians (2.6%), central Italians (2%), Calabrians (0.7%), Italians of Albanian origin (1.3%), Italians from Apulia (1.3%). These numbers are less than 1/10 of the corresponding frequency in Germanic speakers.>>

If I understod correctly the 2.6% share among northern Italians might indicate a Germanic contribution of up to 20% of all y-chromosomes, which would amount to quite a sizable emigration. Espcesially if you take into consideration that Northern Italy was already fairly densely settled civilized region and the ruling Germanics tribes did no engage in any whole-sale slaughter or displacement of the native population.

Furthermore we do not have clear idea what was the source population of the Germanic emigrants, the Germanic tribes were patrilinear and may have had y-chromosome profiles quite different from the average modern German population.

Also the numbers of the invading Germanic tribes were generally pretty low, after all the Vandals who established their kingdom in Northern Africa only numbered about 20 000 people. Thus in my opinion it is quite possible that the Germanic settlers made an invigorating contribution towards the renaissance both genetically and culturally.

>> If I understod correctly the 2.6% share among northern Italians might indicate a Germanic contribution of up to 20% of all y-chromosomes, which would amount to quite a sizable emigration.

First of all, I1a and I1c originated in southern Europe, so they don't indicate Germanic ancestry. They indicate potential Germanic ancestry. Second, your figure of 20% is wrong. Third, there are no significant differences of I frequency in Italy, thus invalidating that the Rennaissance started in a particular place because of a "German" element.

Exactly!I always new this to be so,before this study was made.

But I would like to know something.Has their been a strong chromosome change in the people of Germania when the Romans occupied and colonzied it?

In other words how strongly did the Italian's introduce such chromosomes to the affected population of modern Germany .

Germanic is not the same as IE. Whether the Germanics are stronger IE than others or not change nothing for the today Germanics.

Ethnic IE of today are always mixed and ethnic heritage is not the same as race+genes although its strongly related.

So what some said is just idiotic. Someone who is ethnically and linguistically Germanic must not be fully IE.
Especially not if he is Germanic from the iron age on or even much earlier.

German people with only 10% German genes? This debate proves that old racial and national classifications are obsolete and should never be used again.